The Idea Of Free Will

[utilyan]

Luke 70

30But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

Either God is a sovereign idiot who didn't see it coming or God leaves it to a person to make choices.

 

[Yeshua1]

The idea that it is the will of man that chooses whether or not to be saved is false.

The Idea of Free Will

You need to look no further than John chapter 1. It states that it is not the will of the flesh but of God.

IF God relied upon "free will" to get any lost sinner saved, we would all be choosing to say hell bound, as better for us to be our own "god" then want God to have to save us!

 

[MartyF]

For example, if I quote this:
" For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." ( John 3:16 ).

It has just as much "weight" as this:
" The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." ( Psalms 5:5 ).

So, you’re saying that Jesus was lying when he said some parts of the Bible are more important than other parts?

 

[Reformed1689]

IF God relied upon "free will" to get any lost sinner saved, we would all be choosing to say hell bound, as better for us to be our own "god" then want God to have to save us!

This is the point the other side overlooks. It is the will of no man to follow God. Paul is explicit about this.

 

[Revmitchell]

IF God relied upon "free will" to get any lost sinner saved, we would all be choosing to say hell bound, as better for us to be our own "god" then want God to have to save us!

No one claims He does.

 

[Reformed1689]

Saying that salvation occurred after belief is just the standard arguing of semantics.

No that is not true.

There is a ship sinking and the Coast Guard makes the choice to save them. Did salvation happen at the moment of choice? Of course not. It happened when they were actually rescued.

 

[MB]

You do.

1. God chose before time began that Iconoclast would be saved.

2. Since God had already chosen Iconoclast to be saved, Iconoclast had to believe. There was no choice made by Iconoclaust.

3. Sometime after this Iconoclast is saved. (Not really wanting to quibble over something as silly as regeneration before or after belief or other stupid stuff.)

Regardless, all Calvinists believe that the choice by God to save them has occurred before belief. Saying that salvation occurred after belief is just the standard arguing of semantics.

No proof just jabber
MB

 

[MartyF]

There is a ship sinking and the Coast Guard makes the choice to save them.

The Coast Guard is not a god which has predetermined the future. A Coast Guard's "choice" to save a ship may or may not save it. But the decision by the Calvinist God before the beginning of time to save someone always saves that person.

So, the decision by the Calvinist God will effectively save the person prior to the person believing.

 

[MartyF]

No proof just jabber
MB

MB's jabber.

 

[utilyan]

1 john 3

10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

John 13
35“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

If you don't know who else is "elect" I got bad news for you.

 

[Reformed1689]

The Coast Guard is not a god which has predetermined the future. A Coast Guard's "choice" to save a ship may or may not save it. But the decision by the Calvinist God before the beginning of time to save someone always saves that person.

So, the decision by the Calvinist God will effectively save the person prior to the person believing.

You are missing the point. It was not the choice of the people on the ship to save, it was the choice of the Coast guard.

In the same way it is not our choice to have God save us. He already chose to save us and perfectly accomplishes that.

 

[utilyan]

No that is not true.

There is a ship sinking and the Coast Guard makes the choice to save them. Did salvation happen at the moment of choice? Of course not. It happened when they were actually rescued.

From eternity past the "coast guard" knew that sinking ship, HECK it fired the torpedo. And follows its scheduled plan of mock rescue and kill the rest.

There is no way to sugar coat such a pathetic and evil view of God.

Its like if you took offense that an ant in your ant farm sneezed.

 

[Reformed1689]

From eternity past the "coast guard" knew that sinking ship, HECK it fired the torpedo. And follows its scheduled plan of mock rescue and kill the rest.

There is no way to sugar coat such a pathetic and evil view of God.

Its like if you took offense that an ant in your ant farm sneezed.

This is yet another blasphemous strawman.

 

[MartyF]

You are missing the point. It was not the choice of the people on the ship to save, it was the choice of the Coast guard.

In the same way it is not our choice to have God save us. He already chose to save us and perfectly accomplishes that.

I agree that this is the Calvinist position.

However, my point of contention is that when the Calvinist God makes the decision before the beginning of time, the person in effect is already saved before he or she is even born.

 

[Reformed1689]

However, my point of contention is that when the Calvinist God makes the decision before the beginning of time, the person in effect is already saved before he or she is even born.

No that is not correct. You are not saved until you are saved.

 

[utilyan]

This is yet another blasphemous strawman.

what part I got wrong?


Real Cost guard doesn't pick n' choose or flip a coin whether to rescue a ship

 

[Reformed1689]

what part I got wrong?

You are comparing the Coast Guard in the illustration to what Calvinists say are God and you totally misrepresent everything we believe.

We do not believe God sabatoged the unbelievers. We do not beleive he mocks them.

The god you describe is not the God of the Bible, not the God of Calvinists and you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[utilyan]

You are comparing the Coast Guard in the illustration to what Calvinists say are God and you totally misrepresent everything we believe.

We do not believe God sabatoged the unbelievers. We do not beleive he mocks them.

The god you describe is not the God of the Bible, not the God of Calvinists and you should be ashamed of yourself.

First please put actual effort into your reading and then Quote where I said he mocks anyone. I think your bringing in your philosophy is to the point it distorts everything you read and hear..

Your philosophy is filling in the words and giving meaning between the lines.


Did God Love the "believer" FIRST from foundation and hate the "unbeliever" FIRST from the foundation?


IF you don't hate God why do you keep portray him character worst than an nazi?

 

[utilyan]

Here is a Coast Guard ship who knows exactly who is sinking.

He could save all the ships if he wanted to.

He decides to save some.


Do you think that Ship which could easily saved all the ships but deliberately chose for some to die would be congratulated?

And those that drown, drown to his "Glory".



We not talking about God here..... What would we say of the character of this person? Is he noble and Good?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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