Jesus Christ was Born of Woman . . . fact or fiction?

Don't be silly- I'm a BAPTIST.

However, baptism is SYMBOLIC. If baptism washes away sin, why call on Jesus?

Jesus saved the repentant thief on the cross who couldn't possibly be baptized. But I believe every new Christian SHOULD be baptized ASAP. However, it isn't always possible to baptize people at the time of salvation or even months later in places like Barrow, AK if their church doesn't have a natatorium.

However, if a new Christian dies before being baptized, he/she's still saved.

Baptizing an unsaved person produces only a wet sinner, same as baptizing a baby produces only a wet baby.

 

Quite paradoxical that Mary's supposed subsequent maternities is seemingly dogma to modern Protestants, without one single verse of Scripture to support it.

 

Matthew 13:55-56 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.

Now, you may commence with the mental gymnastics needed for you to deny Mary having children and being sexually active with Joseph. I expect you will go directly to your big book of Roman Catholic dogma that contorts and twists, without biblical evidence, in order to make Mary a perpetual virgin who never glorified God by having sex with her husband Joseph.


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See my response to JoeT.
You folks are twisting an amazing pretzel rather than accept what God reveals.

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Your error stems from forcing a modern Westernized concept of a family unit (i.e. a nuclear family) onto an ancient Hebrew / Semitic (tribal) culture. The ancient Hebrews did not view family in this manner. Thus, you skew the text by applying modern concepts to ancient cultures, thereby incorrectly interpreting those passages by doing so through the lens of a modern nuclear family. The use of “brother” in Jewish culture in antiquity had a much broader use than we use today.

Using the Gospels, which you reference, we can see this to be the case.

St. Matthew (Mt. 27:56) and St. Mark (Mk 15:40) state the mother of James, Joseph, Simon and Judas to be Mary Cleophas and not Mary of Nazareth.


---> John 19:25: “But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.”

---> This Mary the wife of Cleophas (Clopas) is called the mother of James, Joseph, Simon and Judas in Matthew 13:55.

---> Matthew abbreviates this list by simply naming the oldest two, James and Joseph in Matthew 27:56 as this Mary’s (Cleophas) sons.


Ergo, when James, Joseph, Simon and Judas are called Jesus’ “brothers” in Matthew 13:55, this can not mean uterine siblings based on the fact that St. Matthew names a different Mary as their mother.


So while Scripture says Jesus had "brothers" (and sisters), Scripture shows they were not uterine brothers as once again, in Jewish antiquity, "brother" had a much wider meaning than we modern Westerners use.

 

Yes, exactly. Saved as in brought safely through, not saved as in by way of. If you trusted the historical account, this wouldn't even be a point of disagreement.

Yet you don't believe Peter and Jesus that the true baptism is not of the water but of the Spirit. That's what's sad. You're ignoring the obvious straightforward text in favor of fallible man's interpretations.

Then why not accept what the actual account reveals, that God saved Noah from the flood waters, not by the flood waters, which is why Peter used that specific word.

Now you're just being stubborn. Peter said the baptism that saves is not the water washing the flesh, but a decision for God. The text is very obvious and straightforward.

When Peter tells you baptism saves, but not the washing part, the decision part, why do you ignore him?

Yep, and I believe Peter, that this water symbolizes true Baptism, the pledge to God, not the water immersion performed by man. Very easy and straightforward. John the baptist told you,

Matt. 3:11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.​

That's the Baptism Peter wants for you, the Baptism of the Spirit. That's the Baptism the water symbolizes. That's the only Baptism that will save you from the works and legalism you're trusting in. If you refuse, and cling to your works, you'll receive another kind of Baptism by fire which is explain in the next verse. This is not me, talking this is Scripture.

 

No. Celibacy was a common practice. Even if you were married Paul suggested being celibate.

Through out time she is called the virgin, not the ex-virgin, or once virgin. When she picked up being handmaid of the LORD I guaranteed Joseph would have not that even if he were half as pious. Would you? As if you don't have enough on your plate raising GOD ALMIGHTY.


1 Corinthians 7

29But this I say, brethren, the time has been shortened, so that from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none;


"from now on those who have wives should be as though they had none;"

What does that mean? What is Paul saying here?......sounds catholic.



34and his interests are divided. The woman who is unmarried, and the virgin, is concerned about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit; but one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how she may please her husband. 35This I say for your own benefit; not to put a restraint upon you, but to promote what is appropriate and to secure undistracted devotion to the Lord.


The woman who is unmarried, and the virgin, is concerned about the things of the Lord.

one who is married is concerned about the things of the world,


>>>>> undistracted devotion to the Lord.<<<<<


Paul is pretty reluctant when it comes to marriage/sex.

5Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.


Sex motivated by sexual gratification is wrong, even if you are married.

"sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive [between spouses] purposes"


Luke 1
31“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.


Mary is ACTUAL mother of Jesus Christ. Not surrogate. She conceived. This doesn't diminish God in the least, SHE is his means by which he chose.

 

VERY easy !

A little background: Jesus was telling parables & teaching in Nazareth. Some of the men He'd grown up among questioned the source of His wisdom.

Matt. 13:55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

So Mary had at least 7 other children, all conceived in the usual fashion, we assume. So much for her virginity after Jesus was born.[/COLOR]

 

No forcing. Just reading what the text says.
It is you who is trying to force the text to mean something other than what it says.
Sadly, your church dogma takes precedence over the Bible and you will never honor God's word above your church dogma.
The gymnastics and pretzeling needed for your conclusion is quite impressive, however. Bravo.

 

I agree, Jordan. There's not one verse of Scripture saying she was anything but an ordinary Jewish "housewife", except for conceiving & giving birth to Jesus while she was still a virgin.

In Matt. 13:55-56, the men of Nazareth believed she was quite-ordinary, as the context suggests.

Evidently, Joseph died fairly-young. From the cross, Jesus charged John with looking after her.

 

Where were those 7 at the cross? Jesus tells John that is his mother and John takes her to his home. Why not back home with her 7 other actual children?

 

So your saying God needed Mary to bring forth a sinless Jesus.... even though God himself supposedly brought forth Mary sinless. If you don't see the irony here then there isn't much I can say to help you.

So basically God needed Mary to do for Jesus what he did for Mary?
Your whole theory is a contradiction. If God could cause Mary to come forth as sinless, then he certainly does not need Mary to cause the sinless son of God to be born.

 

". . . when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: . . . " -- 1 Peter 3:20-21.

Respectfully two questions. First, how was Noah and family "saved through water?" Second, why go to the trouble of the exclution, "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God?"

 

Very easy.
They didn't believe he was the Messiah at that time. They were estranged and disbelieving. Mary believed.
However, note that after the resurrection Jesus brothers, James and Jude are inspired by God (Jesus) to write.

 

Time for a Bible and linguistics lesson . . .

First of all – as @JoeT already stated – “Adelphos” is used in the NT brother of same parents, half-brother (same father), relative, kinship, same tribe, neighbor, fellow believer, fellow countryman, etc.

The “other Mary” at the foot of the cross is described as being the mother of James and Joses. She is also described as being Mary’s (mother of Jesus) “sister” (adelphe) (John 19:25). What do the Scriptures have to say about the women standing at the cross and their children?

Matt. 27:56 says, "…among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee".

Mark 15:40 states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome."

Finally, John 19:25 states, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".

When you compare the different accounts of the crucifixion, they clearly show the mother of James and Joseph to be the wife of Clopas (also called, Alphaeus) – not Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Any attempt to connect these people as uterine brothers of Jesus are squashed by the Bible.

Another Protestant “proof” against the idea of Mary’s perpetual virginity is the word “until”.
Matt. 1:25 says: but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
Did Mary have other children after Jesus? As we have examined – the Bible does NOT support this idea. Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “until”.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death.
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool."'
Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool?

The problem here is that you anti-Catholics attempt to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago.

 

Read the entire passage in 1 Corinthians 7. Your claim is twisted.

1 Corinthians 7:17-40 Only let each person lead the lifethat the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches. Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God. Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called. Were you a bondservant when called? Do not be concerned about it. (But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.) For he who was called in the Lord as a bondservant is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a bondservant of Christ. You were bought with a price; do not become bondservants of men. So, brothers, in whatever condition each was called, there let him remain with God. Now concerning the betrothed, I have no command from the Lord, but I give my judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy. I think that in view of the present distress it is good for a person to remain as he is. Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But if you do marry, you have not sinned, and if a betrothed woman marries, she has not sinned. Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that. This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away. I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord. But the married man is anxious about worldly things, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried or betrothed woman is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit. But the married woman is anxious about worldly things, how to please her husband. I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord. If anyone thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed, if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry—it is no sin. But whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity but having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart, to keep her as his betrothed, he will do well. So then he who marries his betrothed does well, and he who refrains from marriage will do even better. A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord. Yet in my judgment she is happier if she remains as she is. And I think that I too have the Spirit of God.

A surrogate mother conceives.

The placenta attatches to her womb. Otherwise the child would die of starvation.

In my opinion (and that is all it is) Jesus had no dna from Mary.

 

Nice gymnastics routine. Yet, you avoid the verses presented to you.

Matthew 13:55-56 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

Mark 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.

It seems that your church dogma trumps the Bible...as always.

 

Time for another Bible lesson . . .

The Kingdom of Heaven is modeled after the Davidic Kingdom (or, vice versa). We can see this from the references to Isaiah 22:20-22 when Jesus appointed Peter as the bearer of the “keys to the kingdom” (Matt. 16:18-19).

In the Davidic Kingdom, the wife of the King was NOT the Queen – but rather, his MOTHER was elevated to that station. The title Gebirah, meaning “Great Lady” or “Queen Mother” was a royal title and an office which was bestowed upon the mothers of the Kings of Israel but only to those in the line of David.

Jesus Christ is the heir of David. He is the fulfillment of the covenant promises made to David in 2 Samuel 7:16; 23:5, and repeated to Mary in Luke 1:26-36. Mary’s son rules from the Kingdom of the heavenly Jerusalem. It is fitting that His mother should enjoy the same role that other Davidic Queen Mothers enjoyed, that is the royal office of the heavenly Gebirah.

NT fulfillments are ALWAYS more glorious and perfect than their OT types. – without exception.