Featured How do you interpret "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"?

A

Adam was not the first sinner, We cannot blame Adam for our sin. Sin occurred in Heaven. God did not look through time, There is no time as sin occurred,

 

This thread seems to be based on a poor and inaccurate translation.

Revelations 13:8 (NASB) 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Note the verse does not say not suggest the Lamb was slain since or before creation.
Second, the verse does not say God formulated a plan to slay His Lamb "before" creation.
Third, from the foundation of the world refers to the period since creation and not before.
Foreknowledge refers to using knowledge acquired or formulated in the past at the present time, thus when Christ died, He was put to death according to the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God.
So the idea refers backward in time, and not forward.

 

I have often been called a Calvinist, but I may be alone in my views regarding this. I absolutely believe that God "looked down the corridors of time" and that it did indeed play a role in who He chose. I do not, however, believe that He chose based on foreseen faith. I believe that this is what He saw when He looked down:

The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. - Psalms 14:2-3

I believe that God's knowledge that the whole world would willingly reject Him played a role in how He chose who He would call:

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. -1 Corinthians 1:18-31

I believe that God's plan of salvation was a direct response to the world's willful ignorance of Him. The preaching of the cross is only "the power of God" to "them which are called", and God doesn't call everyone. He only calls those who He predestinated to be conformed to Christ:

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. -Romans 8:29-30

God chose who He would call in such a way as to perfectly display both His wrath and His mercy towards a willingly ignorant world:

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? - Romans 9:22-24

Again, I may very well be alone in this view.

 

Revelations 13:8 (NASB) 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Note the verse does not say nor suggest the Lamb was slain since or before creation.
Second, the verse does not say God formulated a plan to slay His Lamb "before" creation.
Third, from the foundation of the world refers to the period since creation and not before.
Foreknowledge refers to using knowledge acquired or formulated in the past at the present time, thus when Christ died, He was put to death according to the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God.
So the idea refers backward in time, and not forward.

Apparently when the truth of scripture is exposed, it will be ignored if the truth clashes with one's theology.

 

Your view is based on a poor and inaccurate translation. Just read Revelation 17:8 and explain why both do not say names were not written since the foundation of the world.

Note the verse does not say nor suggest the Lamb was slain since or before creation.
Second, the verse does not say God formulated a plan to slay His Lamb "before" creation.
Third, from the foundation of the world refers to the period since creation and not before.
Foreknowledge refers to using knowledge acquired or formulated in the past at the present time, thus when Christ died, He was put to death according to the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God.
So the idea refers backward in time, and not forward.

 

George,

I think that Van realizes that Revelation 13:8 causes real problems for Arminians if compared with Ephesians 1:4 in this way.

Contrary to your quoted response above, God's foreknowledge, alone, does not guarantee that a thing will come to pass. The Bible has on record that God has foreknown things that never actually ended up happening:

Then said David, O Lord God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah, to destroy the city for my sake. Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? will Saul come down, as thy servant hath heard? O Lord God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the Lord said, He will come down. Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the Lord said, They will deliver thee up. Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went whithersoever they could go. And it was told Saul that David was escaped from Keilah; and he forbare to go forth.

It's only God's predestination (Ephesians 1:5), or foreordination (1 Peter 1:20), that makes a thing "as good as done".

 

If a view differs from yours, then it deviates from God's?

Lets see,
ASV, NASV1977, NASB95
Lexham Bible
NET Bible
HCSB, CSB
World English Bible

All accept Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8 say names were not written from the foundation of the world.

Your versions say Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8 disagree as to when names were not written.

 

Again, why did the KJV handle the Greek grammar of Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8 differently?

 

No, the versions I listed in post #31 all handle the grammar in the same manner, connecting written with from the foundation of the world. Your version handles the grammar differently by not connecting written with from the foundation of the world.
I am referring to the text of Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8.

I identified several myths in post #28.

Note the verse [Revelation 13:8] does not say nor suggest the Lamb was slain since or before creation.
Second, the verse does not say God formulated a plan to slay His Lamb "before" creation.
Third, from the foundation of the world refers to the period since creation and not before.
Foreknowledge refers to using knowledge acquired or formulated in the past at the present time, thus when Christ died, He was put to death according to the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God.
So the idea refers backward in time, and not forward.

Basing doctrine on mistaken translation is futile.

 

The verse says that Christ was "slain from the foundation of the world". For that statement to be true, it's actualization had to be guaranteed. Since foreknowledge alone does not guarantee actualization, it was God's predestination of the event that makes this statement true.

In the same way, the statement that God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world is only true because God's predestination guaranteed the actualization of this event before the foundation of the world. It was as good as done.

A solid point. I guess maybe I'm not a Calvinist after all...

 

Fair enough, let me try this again then.

God foreknew the line of eventualities that would be actualized and was thus able to ensure, from the foundation of the world, that Christ would be slain. And so, God did not cause all these eventualities to occur, but in His infinite wisdom, He perfectly "played the board" so that human volition and His divine plan occurred in perfect harmony. In this sense, God predestinated that Christ would be slain, while those involved in Christ's death are completely responsible for their own actions.

God foreknew the line of eventualities that would be actualized and was thus able to ensure, before the foundation of the world, that we would be chosen in Christ. And so, God did not cause all these eventualities to occur, but in His infinite wisdom, He perfectly "played the board" so that human volition and His divine plan occur in perfect harmony. In this sense, God predestinated that we would be chosen in Christ, while those who aren't chosen in Christ are still completely responsible for their own actions.