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How do you interpret "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"?

loDebar

Well-Known Member
A
Let's take this to its logical conclusion.

The reason that Christ was the lamb that was slain was because his death and resurrection was going to take away the sins of the world. (John 1:29)

If Adam had never sinned, and by extension, no one born would have ever sinned, there would be no need for Jesus to die on the cross.

So, God must have foreknown that Adam would sin, and had already provided a remedy--Jesus would be the sacrificial lamb of God.

Therefore, it could be said that God "looked down through the corridors of time" and saw that Adam would sin, and thus predestined that Christ would die for our sins.

Now, I'm sure the Calvinists will object to this, but that statement is the logical result of their theology.


Adam was not the first sinner, We cannot blame Adam for our sin. Sin occurred in Heaven. God did not look through time, There is no time as sin occurred,
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This thread seems to be based on a poor and inaccurate translation.

Revelations 13:8 (NASB) 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Note the verse does not say not suggest the Lamb was slain since or before creation.
Second, the verse does not say God formulated a plan to slay His Lamb "before" creation.
Third, from the foundation of the world refers to the period since creation and not before.
Foreknowledge refers to using knowledge acquired or formulated in the past at the present time, thus when Christ died, He was put to death according to the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God.
So the idea refers backward in time, and not forward.
 
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Twiceborn

Member
I don't know if you are a Calvinist. Do you hold to reformed theology?

Anyway, most Calvinists staunchly oppose the idea of God looking down the corridors of time and then predestining something to happen. The problem is when it comes to Adam's sin, and God having planned to send a redeemer "before the foundation of the world", Calvinists are put into a box because if they reject the idea that God saw Adam would sin and then preemptively created a redemption plan, by necessity they have to accept that God caused Adam to sin, which of course they deny, but it is the logical conclusion to their theology.

I have often been called a Calvinist, but I may be alone in my views regarding this. I absolutely believe that God "looked down the corridors of time" and that it did indeed play a role in who He chose. I do not, however, believe that He chose based on foreseen faith. I believe that this is what He saw when He looked down:

The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. - Psalms 14:2-3

I believe that God's knowledge that the whole world would willingly reject Him played a role in how He chose who He would call:

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. -1 Corinthians 1:18-31

I believe that God's plan of salvation was a direct response to the world's willful ignorance of Him. The preaching of the cross is only "the power of God" to "them which are called", and God doesn't call everyone. He only calls those who He predestinated to be conformed to Christ:

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. -Romans 8:29-30

God chose who He would call in such a way as to perfectly display both His wrath and His mercy towards a willingly ignorant world:

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? - Romans 9:22-24

Again, I may very well be alone in this view.
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
Do you know of any Scriptures that state that the choosing was done in these last times, or that the choice, made before the foundation of the world, was not made before the foundation of the world? I do not.

Sure I do. But for now I'm just trying to get a straight answer to my question.
Which one is your answer? You wrote two things:

Before the foundation of the world.
The actual slaying was done in these last times for the believer.

Was he ACT-UALLY slain "before the foundation of the world", or "in these last times"?
 
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Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ah yes, how many times have we heard that tune about a passage which clashes with one's theology...
Revelations 13:8 (NASB) 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Note the verse does not say nor suggest the Lamb was slain since or before creation.
Second, the verse does not say God formulated a plan to slay His Lamb "before" creation.
Third, from the foundation of the world refers to the period since creation and not before.
Foreknowledge refers to using knowledge acquired or formulated in the past at the present time, thus when Christ died, He was put to death according to the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God.
So the idea refers backward in time, and not forward.

Apparently when the truth of scripture is exposed, it will be ignored if the truth clashes with one's theology.
 
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George Antonios

Well-Known Member
Revelations 13:8 (NASB) 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

Note the verse does not say nor suggest the Lamb was slain since or before creation.
Second, the verse does not say God formulated a plan to slay His Lamb "before" creation.
Third, from the foundation of the world refers to the period since creation and not before.
Foreknowledge refers to using knowledge acquired or formulated in the past at the present time, thus when Christ died, He was put to death according to the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God.
So the idea refers backward in time, and not forward.

Apparently when the truth of scripture is exposed, it will be ignored if the truth clashes with one's theology.

That wasn't scripture. That was some wiser-than-God scholar's reworking of a hard verse to bring it down to his level of understanding. The scripture says: Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Apparently when the truth of scripture is exposed, we exchange it for another work that fits our fancy.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
That wasn't scripture. That was some wiser-than-God scholar's reworking of a hard verse to bring it down to his level of understanding. The scripture says: Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Apparently when the truth of scripture is exposed, we exchange it for another work that fits our fancy.
Your view is based on a poor and inaccurate translation. Just read Revelation 17:8 and explain why both do not say names were not written since the foundation of the world.

Note the verse does not say nor suggest the Lamb was slain since or before creation.
Second, the verse does not say God formulated a plan to slay His Lamb "before" creation.
Third, from the foundation of the world refers to the period since creation and not before.
Foreknowledge refers to using knowledge acquired or formulated in the past at the present time, thus when Christ died, He was put to death according to the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God.
So the idea refers backward in time, and not forward.
 

Twiceborn

Member
Though I disagree with Calvinism, I have "liked" your answer because it's a good answer. So thank you for that.
Now, what if, along the same line of thinking I said:
"Christ wasn't [actually] slain until much after the foundation of the world. The only reason that it can be said that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, is that He was [variation:] foreknown [Acts 2:23 with Rom.8:29 placing foreknowledge before predestination] to be slain, before the foundation of the world.
In the exact same way, [variation:] we weren't actually chosen before the foundation of the world.
The only reason that it can be said that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, is that we were [variation:] foreknown (1Pe.1:2 & Ro.8:29 & Acts 15:18) [not predestinated - that's a separate issue & Eph.1:5 does not say we were predestinated to be in Christ or to be saved, for Paul tells us in Romans 8:23 that the adoption is the resurrection/new-birth of the body at the rapture, to which inheritance every believer was predestinated] to be in Christ, before the foundation of the world."

Therefore, just as Christ was slain in time, so we we also were chosen in time.
It's just that both events were foreknown of God before/from the foundation of the world.

(And we haven't even touched on the from yet).

George,

I think that Van realizes that Revelation 13:8 causes real problems for Arminians if compared with Ephesians 1:4 in this way.

Contrary to your quoted response above, God's foreknowledge, alone, does not guarantee that a thing will come to pass. The Bible has on record that God has foreknown things that never actually ended up happening:

Then said David, O Lord God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah, to destroy the city for my sake. Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? will Saul come down, as thy servant hath heard? O Lord God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the Lord said, He will come down. Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the Lord said, They will deliver thee up. Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went whithersoever they could go. And it was told Saul that David was escaped from Keilah; and he forbare to go forth.

It's only God's predestination (Ephesians 1:5), or foreordination (1 Peter 1:20), that makes a thing "as good as done".
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No brother, my view is based on the words of God. However, your view is based on the NASV, a poor and inaccurate translation.
If a view differs from yours, then it deviates from God's?

Lets see,
ASV, NASV1977, NASB95
Lexham Bible
NET Bible
HCSB, CSB
World English Bible

All accept Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8 say names were not written from the foundation of the world.

Your versions say Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8 disagree as to when names were not written. :)
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
If a view differs from yours, then it deviates from God's?

I didn't write the King James Bible. It's not my own. In fact, the way Revelation 13:8 is written in the King James Bible bothers me. But too bad. That's what God said. It's my part now to believe and study it to understand it - not change it. Anyway, we can leave that debate for the assigned forum.
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
Contrary to your quoted response above, God's foreknowledge, alone, does not guarantee that a thing will come to pass. The Bible has on record that God has foreknown things that never actually ended up happening:

A) I did not say that God's foreknowledge guaranteed the actualization of all foreknown things
B) You are right. But what is not considered in your answer is that, although God foreknew all eventualities, he also foreknew the one line of eventualities that would be actualized, and in preparation for it, devised the plan of redemption through Christ. In fact, more far-reaching, once Adam fell by his own choice, in all possible futures, the last Adam would have had to die.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I didn't write the King James Bible. It's not my own. In fact, the way Revelation 13:8 is written in the King James Bible bothers me. But too bad. That's what God said. It's my part now to believe and study it to understand it - not change it.
Again, why did the KJV handle the Greek grammar of Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8 differently?
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
Again, why did the KJV handle the Greek grammar of Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8 differently?
A) All versions do that. They do the very thing they condemn the KJB for. I've checked them on that point.
B) What Greek text are you referring to, specifically?
Anyway, let's leave that debate to the assigned forum.
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
I think that Van realizes that Revelation 13:8 causes real problems for Arminians if compared with Ephesians 1:4 in this way.

I think my Calvinist brethren realize the problem that Revelation 13:8 causes them. Just read back that thread and compare the interminable answers they have on other verses in other threads. Note the relative silence on this issue here.
No one has yet here faced up to post #7 and the fact that Revelation 13:8's slain from the foundation of the world was only enacted in time; just as the chosen of Ephesians 1:4 would have to be enacted in time, if you're going to interpret scripture with scripture.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
A) All versions do that. They do the very thing they condemn the KJB for. I've checked them on that point.
B) What Greek text are you referring to, specifically?
Anyway, let's leave that debate to the assigned forum.
No, the versions I listed in post #31 all handle the grammar in the same manner, connecting written with from the foundation of the world. Your version handles the grammar differently by not connecting written with from the foundation of the world.
I am referring to the text of Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8.

I identified several myths in post #28.

Note the verse [Revelation 13:8] does not say nor suggest the Lamb was slain since or before creation.
Second, the verse does not say God formulated a plan to slay His Lamb "before" creation.
Third, from the foundation of the world refers to the period since creation and not before.
Foreknowledge refers to using knowledge acquired or formulated in the past at the present time, thus when Christ died, He was put to death according to the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God.
So the idea refers backward in time, and not forward.

Basing doctrine on mistaken translation is futile.
 

Twiceborn

Member
A) I did not say that God's foreknowledge guaranteed the actualization of all foreknown things
B) You are right. But what is not considered in your answer is that, although God foreknew all eventualities, he also foreknew the one line of eventualities that would be actualized, and in preparation for it, devised the plan of redemption through Christ. In fact, more far-reaching, once Adam fell by his own choice, in all possible futures, the last Adam would have had to die.

The verse says that Christ was "slain from the foundation of the world". For that statement to be true, it's actualization had to be guaranteed. Since foreknowledge alone does not guarantee actualization, it was God's predestination of the event that makes this statement true.

In the same way, the statement that God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world is only true because God's predestination guaranteed the actualization of this event before the foundation of the world. It was as good as done.

I think my Calvinist brethren realize the problem that Revelation 13:8 causes them. Just read back that thread and compare the interminable answers they have on other verses in other threads. Note the relative silence on this issue here.
No one has yet here faced up to post #7 and the fact that Revelation 13:8's slain from the foundation of the world was only enacted in time; just as the chosen of Ephesians 1:4 would have to be enacted in time, if you're going to interpret scripture with scripture.

A solid point. I guess maybe I'm not a Calvinist after all...
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
The verse says that Christ was "slain from the foundation of the world". For that statement to be true, it's actualization had to be guaranteed. Since foreknowledge alone does not guarantee actualization, it was God's predestination of the event that makes this statement true.

Twiceborn, those points were handled in Posts #7 (please note the refs there about foreknowledge/predestination), if you have time) & #33. I have no problem with you tackling them, but you just repeated your point rather than tackling the counter-points given.

The verse says that Christ was "slain from the foundation of the world". For that statement to be true, it's actualization had to be guaranteed. Since foreknowledge alone does not guarantee actualization, it was God's predestination of the event that makes this statement true.

In the same way, the statement that God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world is only true because God's predestination guaranteed the actualization of this event before the foundation of the world. It was as good as done.

A solid point. I guess maybe I'm not a Calvinist after all...

A Calvinist would never say that election occurred in time. So maybe you're a back-slidden Calvinist, haha :)
 

Twiceborn

Member
Twiceborn, those points were handled in Posts #7 (please note the refs there about foreknowledge/predestination), if you have time) & #33. I have no problem with you tackling them, but you just repeated your point rather than tackling the counter-points given.

Fair enough, let me try this again then.

God foreknew the line of eventualities that would be actualized and was thus able to ensure, from the foundation of the world, that Christ would be slain. And so, God did not cause all these eventualities to occur, but in His infinite wisdom, He perfectly "played the board" so that human volition and His divine plan occurred in perfect harmony. In this sense, God predestinated that Christ would be slain, while those involved in Christ's death are completely responsible for their own actions.

God foreknew the line of eventualities that would be actualized and was thus able to ensure, before the foundation of the world, that we would be chosen in Christ. And so, God did not cause all these eventualities to occur, but in His infinite wisdom, He perfectly "played the board" so that human volition and His divine plan occur in perfect harmony. In this sense, God predestinated that we would be chosen in Christ, while those who aren't chosen in Christ are still completely responsible for their own actions.
 
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