Free Will

Yours are spoken in sheer ignorance.
MB

 

Free Will???

for we have known that the law is spiritual, and I am fleshly, sold by the sin; Rom 7:14
for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope, Rom 8:20
having known that, not with corruptible things -- silver or gold -- were ye redeemed from your foolish behaviour delivered by fathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted -- Christ's -- foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you, 1 Peter 1:18-20


and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' Gen 2:17

Did the spiritual law, thou dost not eat of it, sell Adam under sin, with his, redemption, being foreordained before he was created?

 

LOL, I actually exegete the passage while you do nothing and then you say I spoke in sheer ignorance. LOL, you are a funny person.

 

There are scoffers asking members of the church where is Jesus? Jesus said he would be coming back soon and these scoffers aren't seeing it happening. Peter replies that the scoffers are counting days, but days are like years for the Lord. The reason that Jesus hasn't come back yet is that God is showing patience and wants all who are going to repent to have the time needed to do so.

Peter even brings up Noah and the ark, alluding to the fact that yes, Noah and his family were saved already, but by building the ark and having Noah preach, he was giving lost sinners the chance to repent. How long did it take for Noah to build the ark? No specific number is given but good guesses place it at 75 years or so.

There is no reason to force the interpretation that ALL in 2 Peter 3:9 means "elect".

 

I'm not going to do that. I'm simply going to emphasize who the audience is, and challenge you to show us why this passage applies to Gentile sinners of the 21st century.

Ezekiel 36:1-38 “And you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel, and say, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord. Thus says the Lord God: Because the enemy said of you, ‘Aha!’ and, ‘The ancient heights have become our possession,’ therefore prophesy, and say, Thus says the Lord God: Precisely because they made you desolate and crushed you from all sides, so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations, and you became the talk and evil gossip of the people, therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord God: Thus says the Lord God to the mountains and the hills, the ravines and the valleys, the desolate wastes and the deserted cities, which have become a prey and derision to the rest of the nations all around, therefore thus says the Lord God: Surely I have spoken in my hot jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom, who gave my land to themselves as a possession with wholehearted joy and utter contempt, that they might make its pasturelands a prey. Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I have spoken in my jealous wrath, because you have suffered the reproach of the nations. Therefore thus says the Lord God: I swear that the nations that are all around you shall themselves suffer reproach. “But you, O mountains of Israel, shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to my people Israel, for they will soon come home. For behold, I am for you, and I will turn to you, and you shall be tilled and sown. And I will multiply people on you, the whole house of Israel, all of it. The cities shall be inhabited and the waste places rebuilt. And I will multiply on you man and beast, and they shall multiply and be fruitful. And I will cause you to be inhabited as in your former times, and will do more good to you than ever before. Then you will know that I am the Lord. I will let people walk on you, even my people Israel. And they shall possess you, and you shall be their inheritance, and you shall no longer bereave them of children. Thus says the Lord God: Because they say to you, ‘You devour people, and you bereave your nation of children,’ therefore you shall no longer devour people and no longer bereave your nation of children, declares the Lord God. And I will not let you hear anymore the reproach of the nations, and you shall no longer bear the disgrace of the peoples and no longer cause your nation to stumble, declares the Lord God.” The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, when the house of Israel lived in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds. Their ways before me were like the uncleanness of a woman in her menstrual impurity. So I poured out my wrath upon them for the blood that they had shed in the land, for the idols with which they had defiled it. I scattered them among the nations, and they were dispersed through the countries. In accordance with their ways and their deeds I judged them. But when they came to the nations, wherever they came, they profaned my holy name, in that people said of them, ‘These are the people of the Lord, and yet they had to go out of his land.’ But I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations to which they came. “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel. “Thus says the Lord God: On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be rebuilt. And the land that was desolate shall be tilled, instead of being the desolation that it was in the sight of all who passed by. And they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden, and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’ Then the nations that are left all around you shall know that I am the Lord; I have rebuilt the ruined places and replanted that which was desolate. I am the Lord; I have spoken, and I will do it. “Thus says the Lord God: This also I will let the house of Israel ask me to do for them: to increase their people like a flock. Like the flock for sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts, so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the Lord.”

 

SURE,Sir !

First, let's present it in OUR English, along with some surrounding verses:
1 Tim.1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

it simply means that God appointed Jesus as our Savior before time began, but didn't reveal Him to mankind for awhile.(But Jesus still saved the righteous before men knew Him.) And He has a purpose for each believer. He did NOT tell Paul that all men were predestinated before birth. (However, all are predestinated to either heaven or hell, but we can avoid hell by coming to Jesus.)

 

I would like to see/discuss what people’s interpretations of “predestination” is.

As for me, I believe in predestination of the elect only & it’s only directed to the elects salvation, not an absolute thing. and I can back it up with scripture but will wait till someone disputes it.

 

Please start a new thread.

I'm still waiting for people to chime in on whether or not a person can become a believer by listening and considering the gospel. That question is more on topic to the OP. So far, only one person has responded.

 

This is all meaningless unless you can prove from scripture you are in fact elect. There is not even one Gentile in scripture referred to as elect.
MB

 

Well, you added a lot that Peter doesn't say. But, you got this correct:
"The reason that Jesus hasn't come back yet is that God is showing patience and wants all
who are going to repent
to have the time needed to do so."

All who are going to repent are known by God. In your interpretation you acknowledge that "all" is not a universal "all", but a select "all" whom God is waiting for.
ITL, you are presenting my position back to me. Only those chosen and known by God will repent and God is waiting until they come to faith. Then... God's judgment falls.

 

Second this.

 

So God is speaking to the mountains...located in Israel. (This is what you underlined.) What does that mean?

How does Paul help us understand the New Covenant and the promise?

Romans 9:6-8 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

 

I have started a new thread on the definition of "predestination" in Scripture in the "other Christian denominations" sub-forum.

 

Ezekiel 36 is a specific prophesy to the nation of Israel. Any attempt to apply it to the regeneration of a sinner so they can believe in the 21st century is a terrible interpretation.

 

Is the New Covenant only for Israel?
Who is Israel? Is it a nation based upon genetic lineage or is it the people of the promise?

 

Again, you have not presented Scripture to support your thinking, and you are moving the goal posts looking for a compromise position.

All along, I have stated that God most certain is touched by sin.
I pointed out:
First:

He took the sin of all time of all people of all creation unto himself, and became sin for us - yet without sin - the Scriptures state. (Bet you don't understand the parameters of that concept) How can one become sin, yet be without sin?

Sin can result in infirmities as stated by Paul telling the Corinthians their sinful behavior resulted in sickness and death. Scripture teaches that Christ is touched with the feelings of our infirmities. (Hebrews 4:15)

The Scriptures state:

7The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.​

God does in fact use sin and sinful people.


Second:
Did not God predetermine the consequences of eating from the two trees? Yet, God in His omniscience knew that they would certainly eat? Or is your frame of reference present a weak God that is unaware?

We pray to be delivered from evil, He preserves the believer as they experience evil, but that which is evil is approved by God. God determines all matters concerning His creation. Nothing is left that He is not aware and involved.

God cannot sin, but He most certainly can cause great human suffering and tragedy that humankind do consider sin.

God cannot sin, yet he certainly did handle, touch, predetermine it as exampled by the crucifixion. Not a single thing happened concerning the Christ - all He said and did was predetermined and approved by the Father.

God cannot not sin, yet commanded even the babies to be slaughtered, armies to be destroyed, city populations to be wiped out, destruction by plague, pillage, and poverty, ...

God cannot lie, but He does use the deceit of others to return to themselves. (law of reaping what one sows)

Third:
God creates everything, the Bible states, "4The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble."

God created the "father of all lies" and all that are that evil one's followers knowing the outcome of that creation.

See, I don't know what you have for feelings and considering what you have posted how those feelings are aligned with the Scriptures?

But, I can state clearly that which the Scriptures teach:

4The LORD has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.​

Here I have offered you plenty of Scriptures, and should you not move the goal posts, again, will have to admit that I am posting the truth.

What do you actually have to offer? feelings?

Do you actually have Scriptures to support your thinking that God is so limited in knowing all that folks just slip past with no accountability?
Perhaps one doesn't know that God knows the thoughts and even the motives of every heart?

 

Not a single Gentile, but how about what Paul wrote Titus?

1Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, (NASB)
​

Perhaps you prefer the NIV version?

Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness​

Of course John didn't write 2 John to the Elect Lady and the Elect Sister.

Nope, not one Gentile, but certainly more than can be counted by human calculations.

 

#17

 

There is no #17, but I'm considering adding a #7.

#7. Obfuscate the issue by asking unrelated questions to the subject being debated.

Free Will

 

The KJV calls them elect.

​

These were not Identified as Gentiles or Jews.

You and all the Calvinist who believe they are replacing Israel are deceived This claim is arrogance on the part of Calvinist. You even boast about it but Paul said;
Rom_11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Still you have not shown the election of just one Gentile. Can you prove your election? If not then why do you believe your own imagination.
MB