Free Will

[Dave G]

Part Two:

At the core of the debate on this issue is the false idea that man has no ability to choose God without first being regenerated. The truth is there is not a single verse that states this it is only inferred by reformed folks. Inferred is often the same thing as eisegesis. There is not a single verse that explicitly says you have to be regenerated first.

I agree.

At issue is the understood conclusion from Scripture and its many declarations about man's will and "dead-in-sins" condition, that man has no ability or desire to choose God without first being regenerated.
One takes passages like Acts of the Apostles 16:14, notices that God opened Lydia's heart so that she listened intently to the words that Paul had to say, and understands that it happens that way for all of His people.

As I see it, inference is not the problem...
Understanding of the very words on the page, is.

What's more, I maintain that the charge of eisegesis is false... since Mr. Mitchell is either unable or unwilling to tell the reader what the words of Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, and John 3:14-21, among many other passages, actually say in his own words.

Line by line, precept upon precept and "verse by verse".

That he is either unwilling or unable to break down passages like John 6:32-40 and 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 verse by verse, and let the reader see how he comes to his understanding of them, perplexes me...
Instead, he claims that their meaning cannot be understood contextually, apart from bringing that understanding in and developing it from other passages outside of them.

Since it is something that I've come to do naturally ( at first with great difficulty, and then progressively getting easier the more time that I put into my studies ) over years, I see no reason not to allow my brothers and sisters the opportunity to examine me before every word of Scripture.
It also puzzles me that he is unwilling to do so.
To me, it is the singular best way to get everything out into the open and let the readers decide who they think is understanding the Scriptures properly, and according to the very words written on the pages.

Therefore, I patiently await the day that my request will be answered.

Finally, I agree that there is not a single verse that explicitly says that a person has to be regenerated first.
It is a composite built upon many passages, and no one "proof text" goes all the way to explaining many matters of doctrine.

The author of the gospel of John ended his gospel with the purpose of its writing that the readers may believe.

I agree.
But Scripture also tells us the reason why men believe, and why they do not.

John 10:26 is one of the reasons why they do not.
John 8:43-47 is another.
Acts of the Apostles 13:8b is one of the reasons they do, as well as John 6:44, John 6:65, John 17:2, John 6:29 and Psalms 65:4.

Romans 10:17 said faith is acquired by hearing the gospel.

I disagree.

The passage does not say that faith is acquired by hearing the Gospel...
It says that faith is by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Faith being "acquired" is, to me, reading something into the passage that is not strictly on the page.
Faith comes by hearing.

Who hears God's word, if all men reject them apart from the new birth?

Those that have ears to hear ( Matthew 11:15 ).
Those that are "of" God ( John 8:47 ).

The ability to hear and understand the gospel is not tied to being regenerated first.

I disagree.

According to 1 Corinthians 1:18 as well as 1 Corinthians 2:14, natural ( i.e. not-born again ) people do not receive, or welcome the things of the Spirit of God.
Those things include His words....because they are foolishness to those who are not spiritual and do not have the mind of Christ.

Romans 10 covers the process by which one is saved. It begins by the need to call out to God, to recognize the need for God, the process of one being sent with the gospel, then the sent delivering the gospel, then the one to whom the gospel is delivered hearing, then the one to whom the gospel was delivered believing. No where is regeneration mentioned in all of that process.

Romans 10 covers the process by which a saved person, chosen "in Him" before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ), is made aware of their salvation...
By the word of God.

But the "process" is not developed in Romans 10...
It is developed in Romans 8 and Romans 9.

What's more, in Romans 10:20 we see that those that "find" God weren't really looking for Him when He "found" them.

 

[Dave G]

Part Three:

The gospel preacher is sent, the gospel is delivered, the gospel is heard, the gospel is either believed or rejected.

It is believed because the target person is elect and already saved.
It is rejected because the target person is of "them that are perishing", the lost:

" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

In addition, one must be "of God" to "hear" God's words ( John 8:43-47 ).
Those that are not "of God" will not welcome the words of God.

They reject them out of habit.

That entire process is ordained by God. The choice to accept or reject is ordained by God. God is not inhibited by the sin in man and He is not forced to regenerate man first nor is God forced to add an extra measure of grace beyond the gospel to influence man that man may believe.

The only process ordained by God, in the matter of salvation, is the salvation of His elect.

He sends a preacher, they hear the words, and they believe those words.
The words of Scripture, not the words of men.

I agree that God is not inhibited by the sin in man...
He graciously opens the heart, so that we can then listen to the words that are spoken from Scripture ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ), just as He did for Lydia.

As far as an "extra measure of grace", there is none.
It is either of grace, or of works ( Romans 11:5-6 ).

His grace is what opens the hearts and minds to anything other then rejecting His words.
Just as the Pharisees did, and just as all men do when the Gospel is preached and they think it is foolishness and walk away.

We as sinful men need all the help that we can get to come to grips with our sinful condition and our need of a Saviour.
Without His Spirit to do the work, we as rebellious men would only reject His words and continue in our sins...

Right up until our deaths and being cast into Hell.

His grace is all sufficient, and all powerful.
He is the one who makes a person born again.
Their reception of Him is because they are born again:

" He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
13 which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." ( John 1:10-13 ).

The reason they received Him and believed on His name, was because they were born of God.
It had nothing to do with their will, other men's will, or even their bloodline.

" Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him." ( 1 John 5:1 ).
The verse above does not say that whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ becomes born again...
It says that whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ IS born of God.


With all due respect to the esteemed Mr. Mitchell, I have to disagree.
The new birth takes place first.

"Free will" isn't free, it is enslaved by sin.

God does not make all men's wills to be free when the Gospel is preached,
He opens the hearts of His people so that they will listen intently to the words, spiritually.

Just like He did for Lydia.


May God bless you all.

 

[tyndale1946]

Augustine of Hippo is an interesting figure in church history. Augustine came on the scene in the middle of the Patristic Age and at the end of the Western branch of the Roman Empire. Augustine was a churchman of his times. The Patristic Age was a period of mixture and error when it came to theology. Some of the theology that came out of that period was sound while some of it was in error. Augustine's theology reflected that tension, so it is important to reference his conclusions carefully. One part of his theology that has withstood biblical scrutiny is his view of the human will which is sometimes referred to as the Fourfold State of Man.

Pre-fall man was able to sin and able not to sin (Latin, posse non peccare, posse peccare). Before Adam disobeyed God, he was a true moral free agent. Sin has not yet infected the human race. If Adam had not sinned he would not have died. Scripture tells us that God told Adam that if he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that he would die (Genesis 2:16-17). Conversely, if Adam did not eat of the tree he would not die but would live. Theologians call this the Covenant of Works because life was contingent on Adam's obedience. We know that Adam did eat of the tree (Genesis 3:6) and thus incurred the curse of death (Genesis 3:19). So, prior to the Fall, Adam was able not to sin and able to sin.

Post-fall man is no longer able not to sin. He is now unable not to sin (non posse, non peccare). Adam had lost the ability not to sin. Adam did not lose his ability to make choices. The choices Adam made after the Fall were freely made, although this freedom has nothing at all to do with "free will" as we commonly use the term when discussing soteriology. Sinners today also make free choices. Scripture tells us that God tempts no one (James 1:13). Sinners freely choose to sin and do so prolifically. Why? Because their spiritual nature is in a fallen state. They are considered spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1) and sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2). Romans 6:20 states that sinners are "slaves of sin". A slave is not free to serve another master. If left to their own devices a sinner could never seek to leave his master (sin) because he lacks the ability to do so (1 Corinthians 1:18; 2:14).

While the purpose of this thread is not about regeneration/illumination, it is the Holy Spirit that prevails upon the heart of the sinner, making him able to believe (Ephesians 2:4). The sinner does not possess the free will to believe while in his state of sin because to him the things of God are foolishness (1 Corinthians 2:14). But once God has made the sinner capable of belief, the sinner does believe and does so freely. This in keeping with the former sinner's new nature. The former sinner is now able not to sin (posse non peccare) and able to sin (posse peccare). This is the same ability that Adam possessed. The difference is that Adam was under a Covenant of Works, wherein his obedience would be rewarded with life. The believer is also rewarded with life but that life is imputed to him through the perfect obedience of Jesus Christ. Whereas Adam's sin resulted in death, the believer, when he sins, may incur God's discipline but not the same penalty as promised to Adam.

Ultimately, the believer is looking forward to the day when he will be not able to sin (non posse peccare). This will be realized in the eternal state when the remnants of the old nature are done away with.

Thank you for that!... I agree and the Apostle Paul even emphasizes that thought in Romans 7... Brother Glen

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Particular]

You're mostly wrong.

Peter said God wants, without forcing, ALL to come to repentance. Thus, salvation is open to all living people. Peter wouldn'ta written this without God's telling him. HE SAID NOTHING ABOUT WHETHER IT WAS "ELECT" OR NOT THAT GOD WAS GIVING THE CHANCE TO COME TO REPENTANCE !

And WHO does "all" leave out ??????????????????

No, Peter does not make that claim at all.
I walked you through what Peter very clearly said. You are just dismissing the text to hold to a claim that Peter never makes, but you need in order for your faulty teaching to remain propped up.

I very clearly explained how Peter state's "you", which is connected to verse 1 of chapter 1 and therefore the all is also connected to verse 1 of chapter 1.

The fact that you refuse to read all of Peter's letter in its context and butcher his letter through faulty hermeneutics is entirely your problem, not mine. I have done my job, now you do yours or admit that you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

So what is our nature after we are saved? 2 cor 5:17 says we have a new nature. Yet we still sin. That's not in line with our new nature.

Fact is both before and after salvation we can act in contradiction to our nature. The gospel is sufficient to enable that.

While in our old nature, separated from God due to the consequence of our sin nature, we could do nothing that was pleasing or acceptable to God. Therefore, in the spiritual sense, we could not act in contradiction to our nature.

As a born-again believer, child of God, we can and should strive to live a life worthy of His name. However, due to the influence of our sin nature, which we still have, we can and do act in contradiction to our nature as a child of God. Our loving heavenly Father chastises us when we need it to bring us back into fellowship if we neglect seeking forgiveness.

[2Co 5:17 KJV] 17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new[G2537] (a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of) creature:[G2937] (individual things, beings, a creature, a creation) old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

I believe our "new creature" status is "a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of". God has not yet revealed to human eyes what we look like as His new creation!

[1Jo 3:2 KJV] 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

[Heb 12:7-8 KJV] 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 

[Revmitchell]

While in our old nature, separated from God due to the consequence of our sin nature, we could do nothing that was pleasing or acceptable to God. Therefore, in the spiritual sense, we could not act in contradiction to our nature.

As a born-again believer, child of God, we can and should strive to live a life worthy of His name. However, due to the influence of our sin nature, which we still have, we can and do act in contradiction to our nature as a child of God. Our loving heavenly Father chastises us when we need it to bring us back into fellowship if we neglect seeking forgiveness.

[2Co 5:17 KJV] 17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new[G2537] (a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of) creature:[G2937] (individual things, beings, a creature, a creation) old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

I believe our "new creature" status is "a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of". God has not yet revealed to human eyes what we look like as His new creation!

[1Jo 3:2 KJV] 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

[Heb 12:7-8 KJV] 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Well its contradictory and inconsistent to claim we cannot respond to God because of our nature but then once we get a new nature to say we can act inconsistent with that.

 

[MartyF]

Choice does not affect the condition of man's will all men make choices that does not mean the will is free. No Ephesians 1:6 as we have been made accepted in the Beloved

Now you are arguing semantics. The Bible clearly shows that us lowly humans can make choices and that we are able to make either. If you wish to come up with some separate concept “free will” and say we don’t have it. So be it. As Calvinists love to point out, the words “free will” do not appear consecutively in the Bible.

So, if you want to discuss the Greek classical concept of will and how our will is merely an echo of the demiurge, that’s fine. It doesn’t have anything to do with the Bible.

 

[InTheLight]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Let us look at the passage.


Now, the context of Peter's writing is to encourage believer's who are suffering unjust persecution. He is giving them hope and strengthening their faith.
First, he tells them that scoffers would come, following their sinful desires.
He tells us that these scoffers deliberately overlook a fact. God destroyed the world by water and wiped out the evilness of mankind, except for Noah and his family.

He then tells those under persecution to have faith and patience. They should remember a fact. The fact is this:
God is not slow, but he is patient toward...you. Who is the you? Is it the world? No. It is "To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:" (2 Peter 1:1).

While the opening paragraph of the 2 Peter may say it is written "to those who have obtained faith" it does not mean it is not written for the unsaved, either. If we take that approach, we'd have to divorce ourselves from pretty much all of the gospels and the first half of the book of Acts, because they apply to a Jewish audience. We'd have to throw out the Beatitudes and the parables because they were written to the Jews.

Please see this post:
Where Is Free Will?

God is not slow, he is patient toward you.
Why?
Because God is "not wishing that any (of you) should perish, but that all should reach repentance."

Yes, but you just said this book was written to believers, to those who have obtained faith, (or people that have already repented.) Why would Peter say that God doesn't want anyone who has obtained faith to perish? Surely they are saved and in no danger to perish! Why would believers need to repent to avoid perishing?

So, you clearly have zero clue what Peter is talking about. You have twisted one verse so that it is wrongly interpreted and applied. You need to stop your abuse of God's word and repent.

 

[Particular]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.



While the opening paragraph of the 2 Peter may say it is written "to those who have obtained faith" it does not mean it is not written for the unsaved, either. If we take that approach, we'd have to divorce ourselves from pretty much all of the gospels and the first half of the book of Acts, because they apply to a Jewish audience. We'd have to throw out the Beatitudes and the parables because they were written to the Jews.

Please see this post:
Where Is Free Will?



Yes, but you just said this book was written to believers, to those who have obtained faith, (or people that have already repented.) Why would Peter say that God doesn't want anyone who has obtained faith to perish? Surely they are saved and in no danger to perish! Why would believers need to repent to avoid perishing?

So, you clearly have zero clue what Peter is talking about. You have twisted one verse so that it is wrongly interpreted and applied. You need to stop your abuse of God's word and repent.

Very simply, Peter is extending "you" to all who will "obtain a faith of equal standing."
Just as the judgment of the flood did not happen until the Ark was finished, so the judgment of fire will not happen until the last person obtains faith. God is not willing that any person destined to obtain faith would perish in the fire of his judgment.
It's all right there. It's slapping you in the face. Yet, in your foolishness, you refuse to acknowledge it. Instead, you look for a loophole and an excuse.
So be it.
I'm done explaining this passage. Live with your hermeneutical error if you must.

 

[Reformed1689]

So what is our nature after we are saved? 2 cor 5:17 says we have a new nature. Yet we still sin. That's not in line with our new nature.

Fact is both before and after salvation we can act in contradiction to our nature. The gospel is sufficient to enable that.

Not so fast, after salvation we still have the old nature as well.

 

[Reformed]

after salvation we still have the old nature as well.

It depends on how you are defining "nature". If by nature you mean that both the old man and the new man (Ephesians 4:22-24) have some sort of dualistic existence within a believer, I would emphatically state "NO!". We have the Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9). However, if by "nature" you mean the residual effects of the old man that wage war in our minds, tempting us to sin, then I would say "yes". Romans 12:2 tells us to "be transformed by the renewing of your mind". Paul uses similar language back in Ephesians 4:22-24: "22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth." The last gasp of the old man (our former sin nature) is in our minds and physical body (to the extent that our physical bodies will experience corruption). Lastly, in Romans 7:14-25, Paul writes about the conflict the believer faces with sin. In this passage, it seems that he is talking about two natures. But even here he offers clarity in verse 18 which reads, "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not." The flesh (which I believe is synonymous with the mind) is that last fertile battleground in which we fight against sin.

I apologize if this was too much of a rabbit trail to the discussion.

 

[Dave G]

While the opening paragraph of the 2 Peter may say it is written "to those who have obtained faith" it does not mean it is not written for the unsaved, either.

It's written to believers.

The unsaved do not hear the words of God ( John 8:47 ).

If we take that approach, we'd have to divorce ourselves from pretty much all of the gospels and the first half of the book of Acts, because they apply to a Jewish audience. We'd have to throw out the Beatitudes and the parables because they were written to the Jews.

Every epistle and every word of God is written to the "spiritual man".

The "natural man" does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.
They are foolishness to them ( again, 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 ).

The preaching of the cross is, to them that perish ( the lost ), foolishness.
To us which are saved, it is the power of God ( again, 1 Corinthians 1:18 ).

Yes, but you just said this book was written to believers, to those who have obtained faith, (or people that have already repented.)

It is.

So, you clearly have zero clue what Peter is talking about. You have twisted one verse so that it is wrongly interpreted and applied. You need to stop your abuse of God's word and repent.

Read the words again, ITL.

Peter is not writing to the unsaved.
He is writing to the saved...to those who have obtained faith.

The words of God were not written for those He does not love...they were written for His people.
Those words are for you, if you've believed on Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.

Great and exceedingly rich promises of an eternal fellowship with Him.

 

[Reformed1689]

However, if by "nature" you mean the residual effects of the old man that wage war in our minds, tempting us to sin, then I would say "yes".

Yes this is what I mean.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I believe our new member has left some clues in some other threads.

Welcome to the BaptistBoard, Martindr.

Doc Martin?!?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Choice does not affect the condition of man's will all men make choices that does not mean the will is free. No Ephesians 1:6 as we have been made accepted in the Beloved

Yup

 

[robycop3]

No, Peter does not make that claim at all.
I walked you through what Peter very clearly said. You are just dismissing the text to hold to a claim that Peter never makes, but you need in order for your faulty teaching to remain propped up.

I very clearly explained how Peter state's "you", which is connected to verse 1 of chapter 1 and therefore the all is also connected to verse 1 of chapter 1.

The fact that you refuse to read all of Peter's letter in its context and butcher his letter through faulty hermeneutics is entirely your problem, not mine. I have done my job, now you do yours or admit that you don't know what you are talking about.

No, the only thing you 'walked" me through was your personal calvinist opinion. Again, who does "all" leave out ?

And did Jesus refuse to save anyone who asked Him to save him ?

Was Trump POTUS-elect before the 2016 election ?

Sure, there are some pre-selected elect, such Moses, jeremiah, the apostles, etc. but every other Christian has to BE elected, with Jesus having the sole "electoral vote".

I had parents who tirelessly presented the Gospel to me, but without being the least bit overbearing about it, until finally I chose to fully believe it & abide by it. I never felt that I had been "predestined" to receive it. I know others who were equally presented with the Gospel by someone, but who chose to ignore it, as I'd done for years.

And again, if everyone is "predestined", with co chance to change one's status, why preach? Why have Bibles, churches, etc? Why bother to worship?

Your version of the "electoral process" falls flat on its snoot.

 

[robycop3]

Ouch, now that is a claim with no biblical foundation at all.

Let us look at the passage.

Now, the context of Peter's writing is to encourage believer's who are suffering unjust persecution. He is giving them hope and strengthening their faith.
First, he tells them that scoffers would come, following their sinful desires.
He tells us that these scoffers deliberately overlook a fact. God destroyed the world by water and wiped out the evilness of mankind, except for Noah and his family.

He then tells those under persecution to have faith and patience. They should remember a fact. The fact is this:
God is not slow, but he is patient toward...you. Who is the you? Is it the world? No. It is "To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:" (2 Peter 1:1).
God is not slow, he is patient toward you.
Why?
Because God is "not wishing that any (of you) should perish, but that all should reach repentance."
This means there are more to come who will "obtain a faith of equal standing" with Peter.
What will happen when all these people reach repentance?
God will come like a thief and God will burn up the heavens and the earth. No water for this judgment of humanity. This time fire will be used. The day of the Lord will have arrived and the saints who cried out for that day will rejoice. Evil will be destroyed forever.

So, you clearly have zero clue what Peter is talking about. You have twisted one verse so that it is wrongly interpreted and applied. You need to stop your abuse of God's word and repent.

2 Peter 3:1-10
This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.

They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”

For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

There's PLENTY of biblical foundation.

Moses didn't wanna be a spokesman for the Israelis, & kept makingt excuses, which God countered, til finally God told Moses to go. And He told Jeremiah that if he failed to repeat His words for Jerry to take to the people, God would punish him. Jesus made His power obvious to Paul. So again, God made "an offer he couldn't refuse" to His chosen spokesmen. They were not robots; they coulda chosen to have defied God, as Jonah did.

 

[agedman]

The God I have living inside of me is LOVE. He has nothing to do with sin. He can't even touch it. Your problem is you just have no truth.

This is just so wrong, that I cannot let it stand.

God does not turn away from sin. He looks upon sin every instance of our existence. He deals constantly with the sinful and the accuser of the redeemed. He knows even the very core values of that "father of all lies."

"Your problem is you just have no truth."

The God you want is one who hates men.
The God you want is a totalitarian. Who creates sin
The God you want get's glory from the death and torture of those who are not chosen by Him. nor responsible for not believing in Him.
Your God makes you do everything you do. Even sin
The God you want does everything for you
You're just a puppet on strings.
MB

Not certain why you want to rant about the God I want. Perhaps your exuberance drives you beyond that which is Scripturally foundational. So just a little about the God I don't just want, but that I actually have and serve:

Revelation 4:11
Ephesians 3:9
Colossians 1:6
Hebrews 3:4
John 1:9
Hebrews 4:13
Hebrews 1:2
Jeremiah 10:16
Jeremiah 51:19
Colossians 1:15
Isaiah 42:5​

My God may certainly be mocked by inappropriate remarks, but He has authority to bring rebuke to that which He desires to rebuke, set aside that which has become unuseful, remove the light, and leave one to their own imaginations, have mercy upon whom He chooses, leave condemned that which He does not...

I love Him because He FIRST loved me.
Before I knew anything about Him, He died for me,.
Before I was born, He had the form I would take and the plan already established.

Can you actually post in context anyplace that states that God cannot look upon sin much less deal with the sinful, mold the sinful, use the sinful...?

 

[agedman]

Big #4.

Enormous #4.

 

[MB]

This is just so wrong, that I cannot let it stand.

God does not turn away from sin. He looks upon sin every instance of our existence. He deals constantly with the sinful and the accuser of the redeemed. He knows even the very core values of that "father of all lies."

"Your problem is you just have no truth."



Not certain why you want to rant about the God I want. Perhaps your exuberance drives you beyond that which is Scripturally foundational. So just a little about the God I don't just want, but that I actually have and serve:

Revelation 4:11
Ephesians 3:9
Colossians 1:6
Hebrews 3:4
John 1:9
Hebrews 4:13
Hebrews 1:2
Jeremiah 10:16
Jeremiah 51:19
Colossians 1:15
Isaiah 42:5​

My God may certainly be mocked by inappropriate remarks, but He has authority to bring rebuke to that which He desires to rebuke, set aside that which has become unuseful, remove the light, and leave one to their own imaginations, have mercy upon whom He chooses, leave condemned that which He does not...

I love Him because He FIRST loved me.
Before I knew anything about Him, He died for me,.
Before I was born, He had the form I would take and the plan already established.

Can you actually post in context anyplace that states that God cannot look upon sin much less deal with the sinful, mold the sinful, use the sinful...?

Just as you do scripture you also do to my post. You misinterpret it. I didn't say God doesn't deal with the sin. I said He doesn't touch it. In that He is not part of your sin. He does not predetermine it. You still have no truth. It still stands
MB