Free Will

[agedman]

According to John 1:12 man does have the ability to believe as does Romans 1 & 10

"Received" does not warrant one having ability.

It doesn't even present one having the capability or the capacity.

Receive is only determined upon that which is given. One cannot receive what is not given.

Receive is not determined upon one rejecting, for receiving is irregardless of rejecting.

One may reject only that which has already been delivered not that which is in delivery.

In the John 1 passage, "As many as receive Him..." can have the meaning of take, to hold on too, however again, that is determined not upon the ability acquire but upon the acquiring of that which is delivered and not the determination of the delivery.

The receiving of rain given to the unjust is not determined by the ability, capacity, and capability of the unjust.

To make it more personal, you may get rained on, today, whether you have the ability, capacity, and capability to stay dry or not.

"As many as receive (get, take, lay hold on)" the rain today, may be blessed with being wet. There is no implied ability of determination over the rain.

One may suggest that one may avoid the rain by shelter. But that does not prevent the rain, nor the shelter from the wet, and therefore, one in the shelter not being rained upon.

 

[robycop3]

That verse is speaking of the elect who will be saved throughout time.The longsuffering of God leads to salvation of everyone of them.

Few are BORN "elect". Most hafta be "elected". If all those to whom Paul was writing were already "elect", then Paul wouldn'ta been exhorting them.

 

[agedman]

John 1
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

This is all agreed upon.

However, do not leave out:

9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.​

See, it isn't a matter of a lack of light. It is the inability of comprehension and obstinacy concerning the use of the light.

Such inability does not determine the light source, nor the intensity of illumination.

 

[agedman]

Sure it's wrong the word Sovereign is defined by them as absolute control over every aspect in life including sin. You simply don't know what you are talking about. You're just looking for something to judge me on and you can't find anything else.
I'm reminded of this verse.
Mat_7:5 Hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then thou shalt see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
MB.

This is interesting.

The poster desires an omniscient God, but not so omniscient as to know who, when, where, ... concerning salvation.

The poster desires an omnipresent God, but not so omnipresent as to know who, when, where, ... sin occurs.

The poster wants an omnipotent God, but not so omnipotent as to be in control.

What kind of God does this poster want?

hmmmm

 

[Revmitchell]

Not when you read verse 13.

Yea I recently explained vs. 13 in another thread. You are wrong.

 

[agedman]

He gaves us free will or we could not have sinned. To say one does not have free will blames God for sin.

Not true.

John 3 states that non-believers are condemned already. God is not blamed for their sin. It is in the human condition to be a sinner, and such is not determined upon "free will." For if it were, then the rich man who had kept all the law from his youth would have been redeemed.

The will is free to choose from all that is available and it is capable of choosing. That is one cannot choose what they cannot attain. They may certainly strive, but until the ability to attain is acquired, there is no freedom of the will in actualizing that desire.

 

[InTheLight]

See, it isn't a matter of a lack of light. It is the inability of comprehension and obstinacy concerning the use of the light.

Such inability does not determine the light source, nor the intensity of illumination.

Obstinacy, yes. Inability of comprehension? Not so much. Jesus did speak in parables to confound the Pharisees and other Jews, but there was no innate inability to comprehend.

How can the gospel be "the power of God to salvation" if people can not comprehend it?

 

[agedman]

no dilemma just misunderstanding

you realize all are condemned, destined for hell.

God does not will us to free choice. He has already created us with the ability to freely love and obey Him, or not in free choice. The ability to sin is the same ability not to sin

God does want all to be saved but He does not force us either way.

He stands at the door and knocks, Opening the door is up to us.

You are using a Scripture that applies to an assembly as if that were to apply to individuals. It does not.

God did not give us a free choice to sin. We, as did Adam, die. There was no freedom to choose, for we are in the first Adam, and as such all in that first Adam die.

God did not create us to freely love and freely obey Him. That is not the Scripture presentation.

To present God as having some need unmet is not correct, either. God is not needy, nor has unfulfilled desires and wants.

Therefore, God has no capacity to "want all to be saved."

The only verse that indicates such would be 1 Timothy 2:4 and James 1:20 (which doesn't really use the greek word, but combines the thought with the magistrate). As such, the word is used as one who is laying out their best offer, not one expressing need or desire that the offer be acceptable as a salesman may in presenting an item for sale by agenda for need to fulfill quota, money, ...

 

[Revmitchell]

"Received" does not warrant one having ability.

It doesn't even present one having the capability or the capacity.

Receive is only determined upon that which is given. One cannot receive what is not given.

Receive is not determined upon one rejecting, for receiving is irregardless of rejecting.

One may reject only that which has already been delivered not that which is in delivery.

In the John 1 passage, "As many as receive Him..." can have the meaning of take, to hold on too, however again, that is determined not upon the ability acquire but upon the acquiring of that which is delivered and not the determination of the delivery.

The receiving of rain given to the unjust is not determined by the ability, capacity, and capability of the unjust.

To make it more personal, you may get rained on, today, whether you have the ability, capacity, and capability to stay dry or not.

"As many as receive (get, take, lay hold on)" the rain today, may be blessed with being wet. There is no implied ability of determination over the rain.

One may suggest that one may avoid the rain by shelter. But that does not prevent the rain, nor the shelter from the wet, and therefore, one in the shelter not being rained upon.

I said nothing about the word "receive".

 

[agedman]

Obstinacy, yes. Inability of comprehension? Not so much. Jesus did speak in parables to confound the Pharisees and other Jews, but there was no innate inability to comprehend.

How can the gospel be "the power of God to salvation" if people can not comprehend it?

Certainly, the Lord purposely prevented folks from hearing and comprehending. He stated it was with reason.

Besides, didn't Paul point out in 1 Corinthians:

10For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughtswith spiritual words.

14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.​

The gospel is "the power of God to salvation" but that doesn't present that such is given to be activated by the at best frail and corrupt will of a human.

Faith COMES by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. That is the hearing itself is because of the work of the Word.

Human frail, fallen faith is at best a hope. But there is no assurance, and although there may be some evidence there is not security.

Faith of the believer is defined by Scriptures as the "assurance (concretely covenantally establishment) of things hoped for, and evidence (conviction) of that yet seen." That the confidence believers have is from the assurance of the faith. (Hebrews 10 - if I recall correctly).

 

[Iconoclast]

Few are BORN "elect". Most hafta be "elected". If all those to whom Paul was writing were already "elect", then Paul wouldn'ta been exhorting them.

Election takes place before the world was created no one gets elected after the world is created

 

[Iconoclast]

Yea I recently explained vs. 13 in another thread. You are wrong.

Verse 13 is self-explanatory Jesus explain the quite well so unless you agree with Jesus you most likely try to explain it away not explain it

 

[agedman]

I said nothing about the word "receive".

You stated "the ability to believe"

That is typically stated by some as one having the innate natural ability to freely accept God's offer of salvation.

I should have inquired as to how you were using the phrase.

Perhaps you mean to use the term in connection with God supernaturally lifting a person into a state of which the person may make without influence of evil or good some eternal decision.

Of course you know that such presentation concerning prevenient or preceding grace is not found in the Scriptures.

Perhaps you have some other way of presentation.

Please share.

 

[Revmitchell]

Verse 13 is self-explanatory Jesus explain the quite well so unless you agree with Jesus you most likely try to explain it away not explain it

You do understand this is neither a legitimate argument nor is it evidence that you are right. It is sophomoric at best.

 

[Revmitchell]

You stated "the ability to believe"

That is typically stated by some as one having the innate natural ability to freely accept God's offer of salvation.

I should have inquired as to how you were using the phrase.

Perhaps you mean to use the term in connection with God supernaturally lifting a person into a state of which the person may make without influence of evil or good some eternal decision.

Of course you know that such presentation concerning prevenient or preceding grace is not found in the Scriptures.

Perhaps you have some other way of presentation.

Please share.

Your so called typically was a strawman as I did not make an argument for receive. And the ability to believe is a different topic than receive. We do have the ability to believe but only after a few things happen:

Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
Rom 10:15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

1. In order to believe one must be sent with the gospel
2. In order to believe one must be presented the gospel (preached to).
3. In order to believe one must hear the gospel.

Then, as it says in John 1:12, we have the right to become the sons of God!

Now with regards to the receiving of Christ, there is nothing in John 1:12 that suggests that there is an inability to believe or receive outside f first being regenerated. The language is not there. In vs. 13 it says that salvation is the sovereign act of God. If God never decided to save man than man, without God, would never be able to be saved. That, however, does not mean that man has a total inability. That is eisegesis and is unnecessary.

 

[InTheLight]

Certainly, the Lord purposely prevented folks from hearing and comprehending. He stated it was with reason.

Besides, didn't Paul point out in 1 Corinthians:

10For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughtswith spiritual words.

14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.​

​

I Corinthians is speaking of the deep things of God (v. 10) and the "thoughts of God" (v. 11), not the easy to understand gospel. So when Paul says in verse 14, "the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them", it is these deeper things that Paul is speaking about.

The gospel is "the power of God to salvation" but that doesn't present that such is given to be activated by the at best frail and corrupt will of a human.

.

Of course the gospel can break through the will of man. You haven't presented any verses saying otherwise.

 

[Revmitchell]

​

I Corinthians is speaking of the deep things of God (v. 10) and the "thoughts of God" (v. 11), not the easy to understand gospel. So when Paul says in verse 14, "the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them", it is these deeper things that Paul is speaking about.



Of course the gospel can break through the will of man. You haven't presented any verses saying otherwise.

Not to correct you you are not completely off base but you should look even farther back into chapter 1. Paul begins there in comparing worldly wisdom with spiritual wisdom. He stats off chapter 2 with his continuation of that thought process. If one views the creation account by seeing it through the lens of evolution, not only is it worldly thinking but it is also a different thought process that will not allow one to see the creation account as the biblical narrative it really is. (if you hold to theistic evolution I am not picking on that just giving an example). Even Christians can momentarily have a worldly mindset that interferes with being able to understand scripture properly. In 2:6 Paul further supports this with his reference to imparting wisdom to the mature.

 

[loDebar]

You interjected yourself in a conversation you did not understan.

Scripture tends to be necessary in every conversation.

The teaching of the Trinity is known

 

[MartyF]

Be accepted....has nothing to do with it.
God makes us accepted,see Eph1:6.

Genesis 4:7 NLT
[7] You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master."

Very clear choice being presented. Right at the beginning of the Bible just after the fall just in case you are into infralapsarianism. The accepting is based on what Cain does. The choice is very clearly his.

Ephesians 1:6 NLT
[6] So we praise God for the glorious grace he has poured out on us who belong to his dear Son.

Did you quote the wrong verse from your pamphlet? Nothing about people not having the ability to make choices here. I think you were trying to go after the following:

Ephesians 1:4 NLT
[4] Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.

God did not choose us to be in Christ - God chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. See the following passage:

Genesis 6:9 NLT
[9] This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, the only blameless person living on earth at the time, and he walked in close fellowship with God.

If you did not like the Genesis verse, I’ll try another one.

Deuteronomy 30:15 NLT
[15] "Now listen! Today I am giving you a choice between life and death, between prosperity and disaster.

Choices, choices, choices . . . notice that the verse before this one is quoted by Paul in Romans.

 

[Revmitchell]

Scripture tends to be necessary in every conversation.

The teaching of the Trinity is known

You have not comprehended what I said. I did not say scripture was unnecessary. I said you interjected yourself into a conversation of which you did not understand. Your comment was not necessary because my question to him was rhetorical. It was only intended to make a point. Please read things before responding to posts.