1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Two principle NT issues.

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by 37818, Mar 1, 2020.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,464
    Likes Received:
    1,321
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Nonsense.

    Jesus is a man.

    At the time of Genesis 12:7 Jesus was not born.
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    he was there in his Deity!
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,464
    Likes Received:
    1,321
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Really?
    Either the reading in John 1:18 was originally "unique God" or "the unique Son." So either "God" was changed to read " the . . . Son" or "the . . . Son" was changed to read "God." This change was no accident.
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Does it really make that much of a difference?
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,464
    Likes Received:
    1,321
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So was God the Father of another God or of the Son?
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,464
    Likes Received:
    1,321
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes.
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Just One God, in 3 persons, correct?
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How so? Jesus is both Son of God and also God!
     
  9. Origen

    Origen Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2020
    Messages:
    167
    Likes Received:
    36
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I would like to see some hard evidence the change was intentional rather than unintentional.

    Since the nomina sacra forms are so close (ⲑⲥ and ⲩⲥ, only one letter difference), it is not difficult to see how a misreading of the text is at least possibility.

    Moreover as point out both μονογενὴς θεός and μονογενὴς υἱός find early and wide support in the Church fathers (often both forms were quoted by the same Church father). I point this out because the patristic evidence shows no signs of worry concerning the difference between the two readings.
     
    #109 Origen, Mar 4, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    is there any real problem regardless which phrase is used?
     
  11. Origen

    Origen Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2020
    Messages:
    167
    Likes Received:
    36
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not in my opinion. Nevertheless I still wonder how people come to their conclusions. While I admit it is at least a possibility the change was intentional, I would like to know the reasons why some hold that view.
     
    #111 Origen, Mar 4, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Know that some see the Alexandrian text family as somehow part of a nefarious attempt to pollute the word of God!
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,464
    Likes Received:
    1,321
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not necessarly if the reading is "unique God, which is in the bosom of the Father, . . ."
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    he is the Unique One among the trinity, as only One to have become and still is a Man!
     
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,464
    Likes Received:
    1,321
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well was He always "the unique Son" (John 1:18) or did He become "the unique Son" solely through the incarnation, Luke 1:35?
     
  16. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,232
    Likes Received:
    305
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If the change was intentional, it would make more sense to change 1:18 to "Son" to harmonize with John 3:16.

    That being said, we are just one letter off in the Nomina Sacra which has been mentioned multiple times on this thread.

    Also, accidental scribal error could occur through error of "memory". If I am used to calling Jesus the μονογενης υίος ( unique son/only begotten son) then which I come to John 1:18, my mind trigger to this as soon as I see the word μονογενης. I completely miss the word θεος because I thought I knew what was coming next. This would be incredibly easy to do once the υίος started appearing in the nomina sacra form. Which was later than θεος appearing in the nomina sacra form.

    It is much easier to explain how God could be accidental changed to Son, then explaining how Son was changed to God.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
     
  17. Origen

    Origen Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2020
    Messages:
    167
    Likes Received:
    36
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That is possible. The
    "τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ" (accusative case) appears in 3:16, and the phrase "μονογενοῦς υἱοῦ" (genitive case) appears in 3:18. If a scribe was unsure of the reading in 1:18, it is possible that he would look to 3:16 and 18. However I don't think this would qualify as an intentional change. Now I admit it is possible a scribe saw θεός and thought υἱός, given 3:16 and 18, was the correct reading. Yet there simply is no way to prove it.

    Agreed!
     
    #117 Origen, Mar 4, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
  18. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,232
    Likes Received:
    305
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No....and yes. Fully God and fully man. Jesus is Yahweh.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
     
  19. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,232
    Likes Received:
    305
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Correct. I meant 3:18.

    I used lexical form for simplicity

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
     
  20. Origen

    Origen Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2020
    Messages:
    167
    Likes Received:
    36
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, you were correct. I made a mistake with my post (i.e. poorly written).

    The phrase in verse 3:16 is "τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ" (accusative case).
    The phrase in verse 3:18 is "μονογενοῦς υἱοῦ" (genitive case).
     
    #120 Origen, Mar 4, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...