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Calvinism, Arminianism, how can we find what is the true doctrine from God?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Hobie, Mar 1, 2020.

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  1. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    Paul speaks of the olive tree which represents Israel:
    Romans 11:17-24 King James Version (KJV)
    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

    The branches (Jews) were broken off because of unbelief and the wild olive shoots (Gentiles) were grafted in to share in the nourishment of the tree. The natural branches could be grafted back into the tree if they accepted the conditions. God is no respecter of nations or individuals. All who turn to Him will be accepted:

    Acts 10:34-35 King James Version (KJV)
    34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
    35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

    There is no difference before God..
    Romans 10:12 King James Version (KJV)
    12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
     
    #21 Hobie, Mar 4, 2020
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Romans 8:33, includes you and me as being part of the elect!
     
    #22 Yeshua1, Mar 4, 2020
  3. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Tell us who else is elect then great boomba?

    You can't even spot another christian.

    Scripture doesn't say spotting another christian or his disciple is a mystery.
     
    #23 utilyan, Mar 4, 2020
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We can have the witness between us that we have both been saved!
     
    #24 Yeshua1, Mar 4, 2020
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  5. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    "We see how the early church went into apostasy and fell away and brought in false doctrines and idolatry and paganism"

    When? slap some dates down with actual historical sources. Not what your prophetess granny taught you. Actual educated historians.


    How can we find it? For starters if you started your own church its fake, if someone else started a church ie was not passed down, it is fake.


    Jesus CHRIST gave direct command what to do if someone steps out of line and how to handle it. He gave direct command for dicipline:

    Matthew 18

    15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.


    Nothing in here about well if you LOSE , leave and start a new church.


    If people acted like God was on their side we would have this mess, the fact they don't trust God shows when they have to take things into their own hands for a better solution and better system then God had in place.
     
    #25 utilyan, Mar 4, 2020
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God gave to Church of Rome the chance to repent and be restored, called the reformation, instead, Rome officially declared itself Apostate at Council of Trent!
     
    #26 Yeshua1, Mar 4, 2020
  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.
    "Inspiration" of the Scriptures is God-breathed, man-penned.
    I disagree.
    Any of God's children can eventually read and understand His words, as they are written for them.

    All it takes is daily study to grow and to rightfully divide the word of truth ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).
    The only difference between Peter, Paul, and the others is the work God did through them by the power of the Holy Spirit.
    There is no other difference between a Spirit-led and indwelt child of God, and any other child of God.

    We are all His in the Spirit, and we all have spiritual gifts that God has us use for the benefit of the rest of the body of Christ.
    Outside of the Spirit's working through us, we are all messes.


    May God bless you in your studies, and may He remind you daily of His great grace through Jesus Christ our Lord.
     
    #27 Dave G, Mar 4, 2020
  8. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Romans 8 was addressed to the Jews. This is why there is no Gentiles ever called elect in scripture.
    MB
     
    #28 MB, Mar 4, 2020
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  9. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Whoppee! the Catholic church was never the first church and never have believed in the truth. Just like there offspring the warmed over Catholic's called Calvinist.
    MB
     
    #29 MB, Mar 4, 2020
  10. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    This is the most ridiculous statement I have seen on this topic. Yes, it does show there are elect gentiles. You are in the severe minority in this belief.
     
    #30 Reformed1689, Mar 4, 2020
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  11. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Don't you know that the graft still bears it's original fruit from before the graft. This is why we are warned not to boast against the Jews because they can be grafted back in. Not to mention this passage was addressed to the Jews.
    This is true yet this does not mean Gentiles are elect
    We agree here . I'm not of replacement theology. I do not believe Gentiles are elect.
    MB
     
    #31 MB, Mar 4, 2020
  12. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Prove it, don't just claim it, prove it, bet you can't or should I say you know you can't so you'll come up with another smart remark The reason is like so many here you talk big and never show any proof. You just Bable
    MB
     
    #32 MB, Mar 4, 2020
  13. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Romans 8:33 for starters. That is NOT talking about Israel.
     
    #33 Reformed1689, Mar 4, 2020
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  14. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

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    Read your history and you find it all over the place...
    The Great Apostasy is a concept within Christianity, identifiable at least from the time of Martin Luther's Protestant Reformation, to describe a perception that the early apostolic Church has fallen away from the original faith founded by Jesus and promulgated through his twelve Apostles. Protestants used the term to describe the perceived fallen state of traditional Christianity, especially the Roman Catholic Church, because they claim it changed the doctrines of the early church and allowed traditional Greco-Roman culture (i.e.Greco-Roman mysteries, deities of solar monism such as Mithras and Sol Invictus, pagan festivals and Mithraic sun worship and idol worship) into the church on its own perception of authority.[1] Because it made these changes using claims of tradition and not from scripture, the Church -- in the opinion of those adhering to this concept -- has fallen into apostasy.[2][3] A major thread of this perception is the suggestion that, to attract and convert people to Christianity, the church in Rome incorporated pagan beliefs and practices within the Christian religion, mostly Graeco-Roman rituals, mysteries, and festivals.[4] For example, Easter has been described as a pagan substitute for the Jewish Passover, although neither Jesus nor his Apostles enjoined the keeping of this or any other festival.[5][6]
     
    #34 Hobie, Mar 5, 2020
  15. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    How many Gentiles go to a synagogue? When Jews did not fellowship with Gentiles. Romans 7:1 proves Paul was speaking to his breathren who knew the Law. That would be Jews and He was still speaking to them in Chapter 8.
    MB
     
    #35 MB, Mar 5, 2020
  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    You are going to have to do better than that. Romans was not written to the Jews.
     
    #36 Reformed1689, Mar 5, 2020
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  17. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Then prove it was written to the Gentiles.Your passage does say Paul was speaking to Gentiles. To prove he was you'll have to do Better than that.
    MB
     
    #37 MB, Mar 5, 2020
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  18. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Just read the book.
     
    #38 Reformed1689, Mar 5, 2020
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  19. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    This is your problem you can't read and understand what you are reading.
    MB
     
    #39 MB, Mar 5, 2020
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  20. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    So you are honestly telling me that all of the beloved in Rome were Jews only? And that Romans 9-11 were written to the Jews?
     
    #40 Reformed1689, Mar 5, 2020
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