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Calvinism, Arminianism, how can we find what is the true doctrine from God?
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Reformed1689
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Absolutely not.
I agree, but he seems to be saying yes to both questions!
Book of Job.
Perfect example why Calvinism is False.
The Devil Challenges that the only reason Job doesn't curse God to his face is because God manipulates Job.
Job 1
8The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.” 9Then Satan answered the LORD, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10“Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11“But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.”
Under Calvinism Satan has complete victory. God cannot withhold his "gift", There is no independent free loyalty to God. It is totally depended on how God manipulates Job.
Perfect example why Calvinism is False.
The Devil Challenges that the only reason Job doesn't curse God to his face is because God manipulates Job.
Job 1
8The LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.” 9Then Satan answered the LORD, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10“Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11“But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.”
Under Calvinism Satan has complete victory. God cannot withhold his "gift", There is no independent free loyalty to God. It is totally depended on how God manipulates Job.
Actually, the truth in Job is that BOTH Job and satan have God as sovereign over them!
37818
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
And in the end, the person the Lord made Job to be ( 2 Corinthians 5:17 ), proves Satan false.
At the beginning, Job is put into the hand of Satan...
Satan is limited by God to
how far he can go... showing that Lucifer, a created being with great ( but still limited ) power, still has to obey God's commands.
Job's faith, a gift of God ( Ephesians 2:8 ) endures to the end, even while losing everything that most men base their lives in this world, on...family, friends, wealth, etc.
Job is delivered from his adversary, the devil, just as God promises to all His saints ( Psalms 50:15 ).
Job is also shown the majesty of his Creator and humbles himself in the dust where we all belong, when the Lord shows him where Job's righteousness really came from:
God's gracious forgiveness of his sins, and His favor upon him.
Respectfully, sir, under God's electing grace, Satan is shown to be limited in scope and in power.
Jesus Christ won the victory over him at the cross.
As for "independent free loyalty", that is an illusion.
There are only two conditions, my friend...
Man rebelling against God and hating Him,
and man being convinced by the Holy Spirit and the word of God of their need for a Saviour, and to repent and believe on Jesus Christ...
Switching "sides".
Mankind is not and never has been neutral in our affections, nor independent in our actions;
We are either against God and go our own way, or we are new creatures in Christ and go His way, even while stumbling in the flesh.
As for manipulating him,
The Lord never manipulated Job...
He created within him a new creature, and the new creature that now loves God decided, independently, to obey Him.
Of his own freed will.
This is what the Bible teaches utliyan.
We as men are either free TO sin, or freed FROM sin.
May God be pleased to show you this, as well as to remind you of His great grace towards you.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Yes, it does.
Romans chapters 1 through 3, as well as entire Psalms and many of the Proverbs.
In addition, John 3:18-19 and many other passages, when understood in their context, give believers the detailed picture of what man will do in any situation outside of God's grace.
We will only and ever continually go our own way and never seek His face for anything other than selfish reasons.
Then we will go right back to sinning and loving it.
God cannot trust us to have a relationship with Him for all eternity without changing our hearts.
Because in this world, God's elect go from newborn "babes" to spiritually mature individuals through the work of both His word and His Spirit.
Their studying of Scripture is what educates them, and aids in their spiritual growth ( 1 Peter 2:2 ).
At some point in their lives, they are then able to rightly divide the truth ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).
They innately know the voice of their Savior ( John 10:27 ), and "hear" His words ( John 8:43-47 ).
Words that are meant for them and only them.
This will be my last reply to you in this thread, Utilyan, and very likely my last reply on this forum to you.
It seems all you seek to do is to oppose and ridicule people here for their beliefs, especially "Calvinists".
I have no wish to keep repeating this cycle, nor to keep watching while no one reprimands you for it.
I wish you well, sir.
May you always remember that the Lord is gracious, but that His grace is shown to those He chooses to show it to ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ).
He is to be respected for both His power, and His holiness.
I truly hope you come to see that someday.
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"]And in the end, the person the Lord made Job to be ( 2 Corinthians 5:17 ), proves Satan false."
Amen. God does win. Jesus Christ is victorious.
NOT in Calvinism.
IN Calvinism CLEARLY the devil won.
"The Lord never manipulated Job..."
Amen this is true. But in Calvinism that man must be directly manipulated, FORCED irresistibly even.
The Devil would laugh as this the entire point of victory.
"Respectfully, sir, under God's electing grace, Satan is shown to be limited in scope and in power.
Jesus Christ won the victory over him at the cross."
PROVE IT. Under Calvinism Jesus Christ DOES NOT LOVE EVERYONE, Does not love his enemies, Hated people from the foundation of creation.
ERGO he FAILED to keep the LAW.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
One more reply, sir, in the hope that you will study deeper into the Scriptures more carefully before making statements such as the ones quoted here.
Statements that the Bible does indeed address:
" As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." ( Romans 9:13 ).
" The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." ( Psalms 5:5 ).
" Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. " ( Matthew 7:22-23 ).
" I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine." ( John 10:14 ).
" And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." ( Matthew 1:21 ).
" As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep." ( John 10:15 ).
" I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them." ( John 17:9-10 ).
No, He does not.
He loves His sheep.
" For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." ( Romans 5:10 ).
" And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:" ( Colossians 1:21-22 ).
The context in both these passages is believers, not unbelievers.
There are no Scriptures that declare God's eternal love for those who are not in Christ.
Yet, we are told that He does love those who believe on His Son, those who are in Christ from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-14, Ephesians 2 ).
Matthew 25:31-46.
In this passage, we are told of two groups...the sheep and the goats.
The "sheep" ( those who love Christ ) have an inheritance prepared for them from the foundation of the world.
The goats ( those who hate Him and neglect Him ) have their own.
Romans 9:6-29.
In this passage, it is very explicit with regard to what grace is, who it is extended to, and why God made both vessels of wrath, fitted to destruction... and vessels of mercy, prepared by Him to His glory.
God has mercy on whom He wants to, not on whom we want Him to, and that salvation is not of the will of men or those who work to gain His favor by their own efforts.
God's vessels of mercy, afore prepared unto His glory, are the recipients of eternal life and were loved before the foundation of the world ( Romans 8:28-39, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).
God's vessels of wrath were not.
" For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin." ( Hebrews 4:15 ).
He kept His own Law perfectly...
and never in one instance, ever did anything that His Father, much less mankind, could ever find fault with Him for.
Goodbye, "utilyan".
I wish you well, sir...
Always.
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You teach Jesus Christ sinned by hatred. A MURDERER from the beginning.
Treat others the way you want to be treated. He hates and gets hate in return.
1 John 3:15:
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
None of this would be an issue if folk who hear the command of God had common sense.
GOD commands that ALL MANKIND not sin.
If God commands that all mankind stay at home..............Common sense is he must WANT you indoors, DESIRES you in one location.
GOD commands ALL PEOPLE not to sin....................COMMON SENSE is he wants them saved rather than damned. He does not want them to sin.
But leave it to mentally "elect" brethren to have no clue as to what God wants and desires after giving a direct command.
GOD commands that ALL MANKIND not sin.
If God commands that all mankind stay at home..............Common sense is he must WANT you indoors, DESIRES you in one location.
GOD commands ALL PEOPLE not to sin....................COMMON SENSE is he wants them saved rather than damned. He does not want them to sin.
But leave it to mentally "elect" brethren to have no clue as to what God wants and desires after giving a direct command.
All doctrines are derived from the scriptures themselves, and the truth is that all real Christian pretty much agree on the essentials of the faith, as are all one n Christ!
We must avoid using other un inspired sources for doctrines, such as extra biblical revelations and traditions, or so called propetess like Ellen White, or Prophet so called Joseph Smith!
YHWH's Doctrine is His Gospel and all prominent error, from one extreme to the other, about His Gospel is the result of Short Reading! This Short Reading is accomplished in two major and all encompassing methods of reading. The most abused of these is reading as one Cherry Picks his or her way through the Holy Manuscript.
Having worked my way through 15 years as an Industrial Vehicle Mechanic I find it difficult to pick my Bible up with any sort of Crane without someone to tell me exactly what must be done and as much as the Catholic Church sells this untrue method of understanding and as much as an ever widening circle of Protestant Preachers want this to be true, the Word of YHWH is given to every man that will seek after the Heart of YHWH.
The other major but less used method is to Read the Scriptures Through and just ignore any passages that disagree with what one wants to believe. And thus we have two majors and one minor camp. I hold up in the lessor of these three, the Biblicists. If it says it in the scriptures it is, without question, true.
Having worked my way through 15 years as an Industrial Vehicle Mechanic I find it difficult to pick my Bible up with any sort of Crane without someone to tell me exactly what must be done and as much as the Catholic Church sells this untrue method of understanding and as much as an ever widening circle of Protestant Preachers want this to be true, the Word of YHWH is given to every man that will seek after the Heart of YHWH.
The other major but less used method is to Read the Scriptures Through and just ignore any passages that disagree with what one wants to believe. And thus we have two majors and one minor camp. I hold up in the lessor of these three, the Biblicists. If it says it in the scriptures it is, without question, true.
James 2
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Without question it is true.
James 2
20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Without question it is true.
James 2
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Without question it is true.
1 Corinthians 13
2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
Without question it is true.
Luke 10
25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”
Without question it is true.
Lets see who puts up a "crane" first.
Do you not know that God always have dealt with Lost sinners on the basis the Cross of Christ, and that we access that Grace thru faith alone?
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