Calvinism, Arminianism, how can we find what is the true doctrine from God?

[utilyan]

Do you not know that God always have dealt with Lost sinners on the basis the Cross of Christ, and that we access that Grace thru faith alone?

There is the CRANE. No scriptures just a Crane. CATHOLICS 1, CALVINIST 0

 

[Yeshua1]

There is the CRANE. No scriptures just a Crane. CATHOLICS 1, CALVINIST 0

We Calvinists won long time ago, was called Reformation!

 

[utilyan]

We Calvinists won long time ago, was called Reformation!

We won long before that, He is called Jesus Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

We won long before that, He is called Jesus Christ.

We have Him risen indeed, while you still have Him on the Cross!

 

[AustinC]

Yes, it does.
Romans chapters 1 through 3, as well as entire Psalms and many of the Proverbs.

In addition, John 3:18-19 and many other passages, when understood in their context, give believers the detailed picture of what man will do in any situation outside of God's grace.
We will only and ever continually go our own way and never seek His face for anything other than selfish reasons.

Then we will go right back to sinning and loving it.
God cannot trust us to have a relationship with Him for all eternity without changing our hearts.

Because in this world, God's elect go from newborn "babes" to spiritually mature individuals through the work of both His word and His Spirit.
Their studying of Scripture is what educates them, and aids in their spiritual growth ( 1 Peter 2:2 ).
At some point in their lives, they are then able to rightly divide the truth ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ).

They innately know the voice of their Savior ( John 10:27 ), and "hear" His words ( John 8:43-47 ).
Words that are meant for them and only them.


This will be my last reply to you in this thread, Utilyan, and very likely my last reply on this forum to you.
It seems all you seek to do is to oppose and ridicule people here for their beliefs, especially "Calvinists".

I have no wish to keep repeating this cycle, nor to keep watching while no one reprimands you for it.



I wish you well, sir.
May you always remember that the Lord is gracious, but that His grace is shown to those He chooses to show it to ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ).

He is to be respected for both His power, and His holiness.
I truly hope you come to see that someday.

One more reply, sir, in the hope that you will study deeper into the Scriptures more carefully before making statements such as the ones quoted here.
Statements that the Bible does indeed address:

" As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." ( Romans 9:13 ).
" The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." ( Psalms 5:5 ).

" Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. " ( Matthew 7:22-23 ).

" I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine." ( John 10:14 ).

" And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." ( Matthew 1:21 ).
" As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep." ( John 10:15 ).

" I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them." ( John 17:9-10 ).

No, He does not.
He loves His sheep.

" For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." ( Romans 5:10 ).

" And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:" ( Colossians 1:21-22 ).

The context in both these passages is believers, not unbelievers.
There are no Scriptures that declare God's eternal love for those who are not in Christ.

Yet, we are told that He does love those who believe on His Son, those who are in Christ from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-14, Ephesians 2 ).

Matthew 25:31-46.
In this passage, we are told of two groups...the sheep and the goats.
The "sheep" ( those who love Christ ) have an inheritance prepared for them from the foundation of the world.
The goats ( those who hate Him and neglect Him ) have their own.

Romans 9:6-29.
In this passage, it is very explicit with regard to what grace is, who it is extended to, and why God made both vessels of wrath, fitted to destruction... and vessels of mercy, prepared by Him to His glory.
God has mercy on whom He wants to, not on whom we want Him to, and that salvation is not of the will of men or those who work to gain His favor by their own efforts.

God's vessels of mercy, afore prepared unto His glory, are the recipients of eternal life and were loved before the foundation of the world ( Romans 8:28-39, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).
God's vessels of wrath were not.

" For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin." ( Hebrews 4:15 ).

He kept His own Law perfectly...
and never in one instance, ever did anything that His Father, much less mankind, could ever find fault with Him for.

Goodbye, "utilyan".
I wish you well, sir...

Always.

Thank you Dave. If our friend does not heed what God is saying, we cannot remove the obstacle. Thank you for your gracious approach. It is a joy to know our Father is Sovereign over all.

Peace

 

[utilyan]

We have Him risen indeed, while you still have Him on the Cross!

Jesus told us what we must do. You shove him in a closet and muffle what he teaches for your own idea about what someone ELSE teaches.

 

[utilyan]

Thank you Dave. If our friend does not heed what God is saying, we cannot remove the obstacle. Thank you for your gracious approach. It is a joy to know our Father is Sovereign over all.

Peace

The best case for total depravity and elect favoritism is only an absolute MORON would hear the command of God and not figure that was God's sincere want and desire.

So rather then believe that there are that anyone is a fool, it might be better to believe God has intervened for the education of others.

God commands ALL MANKIND not to sin, GOD Wants no one one earth to sin.

If we meet a complete stranger we know TWO things off the bat. God wants and desires him to LOVE GOD and LOVE NEIGHBOR. We know God does not want the stranger to sin. We know God wants the stranger to repent. He wants them saved.

If he does not want them saved, just the opposite he would WANT and DESIRE them to do evil. The Devil already has that job!

 

[AustinC]

The best case for total depravity and elect favoritism is only an absolute MORON would hear the command of God and not figure that was God's sincere want and desire.

So rather then believe that there are that anyone is a fool, it might be better to believe God has intervened for the education of others.

God commands ALL MANKIND not to sin, GOD Wants no one one earth to sin.

If we meet a complete stranger we know TWO things off the bat. God wants and desires him to LOVE GOD and LOVE NEIGHBOR. We know God does not want the stranger to sin. We know God wants the stranger to repent. He wants them saved.

If he does not want them saved, just the opposite he would WANT and DESIRE them to do evil. The Devil already has that job!

You have created a false conclusion.

God does desire his creation to be healed and to worship Him.
God gave the moral law as a standard for all humanity to follow.
The Holy Spirit holds back the full wickedness and rebellion of man against the Creator.
God, in love, would be just to condemn all humanity because of our rebellion.
God has no obligation to redeem humanity and is a fully loving Creator if he chooses not to redeem anyone.

Utilyan, you seem to think God is unfair if he chooses to be gracious to some, but not all. Why would God be unfair in displaying his Sovereign right to choose, utilyan?

 

[utilyan]

You have created a false conclusion.

God does desire his creation to be healed and to worship Him.
God gave the moral law as a standard for all humanity to follow.
The Holy Spirit holds back the full wickedness and rebellion of man against the Creator.
God, in love, would be just to condemn all humanity because of our rebellion.
God has no obligation to redeem humanity and is a fully loving Creator if he chooses not to redeem anyone.

Utilyan, you seem to think God is unfair if he chooses to be gracious to some, but not all. Why would God be unfair in displaying his Sovereign right to choose, utilyan?

So you think God is not fair? Just called fair?

You think God exercises a right to LIE?

Suppose here is a stranger. He commands that this person Love God and Love Neighbor.

What part of that command gives you the impression God wants this person to burn in hell?



We are talking about God's proclaimed DESIRE and WANT prior to anyone even born.

Sin is a SIN because one is doing something GOD does not want or desire them to do.

Punishment and condemnation? Amen let him destroy all. I ain't got problem with being cold punishment if it works to God's pleasure.

I don't want dirt in my pool, you thrown some mud in there, I will chew you out. How does my "right" to chew anyone out change the fact I don't want dirt in my pool?

I want you to focus on God's SINCERITY in the foremost desire.

Yes God has a right to make you swallow whole watermelons, You tap dancing around the real question.

Does God WANT and DESIRE anyone in rebellion? REALLY?
Does God WANT AND DESIRE his COMMAND to be followed? REALLY?

This is so common sense to Christians, SO PRESCHOOL, you are unlikely to hear this from anyone but me.

You would have to have a mental condition not to get this which is why another likelihood a God given depravity/punishment might actually exist.

Just think about any person in front of your face, Does God want them to Love God and Neighbor? Answer this.

Human beings might just say things like I want and desire to be friends and stab folks in the back. God does not.

 

[utilyan]

A person can tell me something so complex it is over my head. Likewise a person can tell me something so simple its under my head, as they say the answer is right under your nose. I'm trying to explain to you something right under your nose.

Does God want this stranger here to sin? He command that they Love God and Love neighbor, he commands that they don't sin.

Here is the response I am wanting from you.

When God commands a person not to sin, he really only means it 10%-20%, He doesn't genuinely want them not to sin, He doesn't honestly want them not to sin. He just wants them not to sin in as much as he expects them to fail.

Do you believe God does not want you to sin? 100% really does not want you to sin ever again?

 

[AustinC]

So you think God is not fair? Just called fair?

God is fair and just. Do you think God is fair and just when he exercises his Sovereign choice?

You think God exercises a right to LIE?

Is God a liar when He exercises His Sovereign choice to save sinners by grace.

Suppose here is a stranger. He commands that this person Love God and Love Neighbor.

Why are you speaking in supposition when we are discussing the Sovereign God?

What part of that command gives you the impression God wants this person to burn in hell?

What specific command are you referring to?

We are talking about God's proclaimed DESIRE and WANT prior to anyone even born.

What passage are you referring to in scripture?

Sin is a SIN because one is doing something GOD does not want or desire them to do.

Agreed. Sin nature is the natural response of mankind toward God's law. By our nature we are born in sin.

Punishment and condemnation? Amen let him destroy all. I ain't got problem with being cold punishment if it works to God's pleasure.

It works to God's justice. It is a loving act of any judge to justly sentence a sinner for his crime. God is just and that is an act of love.

I don't want dirt in my pool, you thrown some mud in there, I will chew you out. How does my "right" to chew anyone out change the fact I don't want dirt in my pool?

This sentence makes no sense. What are you actually, specifically talking about?

I want you to focus on God's SINCERITY in the foremost desire.

Again, what are you talking about. Which Bible passage are you referring to?

Yes God has a right to make you swallow whole watermelons, You tap dancing around the real question.

Not sure what you are talking about with this comment. It seems you are struggling to make a coherent statement. Please be so kind to tell us what the "real" question is.

Does God WANT and DESIRE anyone in rebellion?

God ordains that humans are born in sin because Adam broke covenant with God. Adam brought the curse on all humanity.
The question is: Does God ordain that all sinners be redeemed? The answer is...No.

REALLY?

Yes, really.

Does God WANT AND DESIRE his COMMAND to be followed? REALLY?

Yes, God does what He ordains to be done. The Corona virus is ordained by God.

This is so common sense to Christians, SO PRESCHOOL, you are unlikely to hear this from anyone but me.

Indeed, anyone who reads the Bible knows that humans are by nature sinful. They know that God establishes covenants. They know that God has a chosen people of the promise. They know that promise is to Redeem His people.
This is elementary to anyone who reads the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

You are correct. Your position is unique to you. That should be a red flag to you.

You would have to have a mental condition not to get this which is why another likelihood a God given depravity/punishment might actually exist.

This just seems like a personal attack and anger on your part, with no biblical support.

Just think about any person in front of your face, Does God want them to Love God and Neighbor? Answer this.

Want? I cannot answer that as God is Sovereign. He may have created them as a vessel of wrath. (see Romans 9)
God may ordain that they Love Him and that they love their neighbor. However, that person is, by nature, rebellious toward God.

Human beings might just say things like I want and desire to be friends and stab folks in the back. God does not.

Indeed, when God chooses to be your friend, he does not betray you.
Humans do lie. Many claim to be Christian, but God never chose to adopt them as his children. Those person's are like Judas. They will betray themselves by their theology and their selfish purposes. God knows their hearts. God knows their deception as wolves among the sheep.

 

[utilyan]

God is fair and just. Do you think God is fair and just when he exercises his Sovereign choice?

Is God a liar when He exercises His Sovereign choice to save sinners by grace.

Why are you speaking in supposition when we are discussing the Sovereign God?

What specific command are you referring to?


What passage are you referring to in scripture?

Agreed. Sin nature is the natural response of mankind toward God's law. By our nature we are born in sin.

It works to God's justice. It is a loving act of any judge to justly sentence a sinner for his crime. God is just and that is an act of love.

This sentence makes no sense. What are you actually, specifically talking about?

Again, what are you talking about. Which Bible passage are you referring to?

Not sure what you are talking about with this comment. It seems you are struggling to make a coherent statement. Please be so kind to tell us what the "real" question is.

God ordains that humans are born in sin because Adam broke covenant with God. Adam brought the curse on all humanity.
The question is: Does God ordain that all sinners be redeemed? The answer is...No.

Yes, really.


Yes, God does what He ordains to be done. The Corona virus is ordained by God.


Indeed, anyone who reads the Bible knows that humans are by nature sinful. They know that God establishes covenants. They know that God has a chosen people of the promise. They know that promise is to Redeem His people.
This is elementary to anyone who reads the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

You are correct. Your position is unique to you. That should be a red flag to you.

This just seems like a personal attack and anger on your part, with no biblical support.


Want? I cannot answer that as God is Sovereign. He may have created them as a vessel of wrath. (see Romans 9)
God may ordain that they Love Him and that they love their neighbor. However, that person is, by nature, rebellious toward God.

Indeed, when God chooses to be your friend, he does not betray you.
Humans do lie. Many claim to be Christian, but God never chose to adopt them as his children. Those person's are like Judas. They will betray themselves by their theology and their selfish purposes. God knows their hearts. God knows their deception as wolves among the sheep.

Read my last post, you are proving my point.

I asked Does God want them to Love God and Neighbor? Answer this.

You answered: Want? I cannot answer that as God is Sovereign.

You accuse God of being a LIAR.

Satan questioned the command of God. So when God commands DON'T eat the fruit, Satan says Does that really mean God doesn't want you to eat the fruit? Your response "Want? I cannot answer that as God is Sovereign. "


If Someone asked you does God want them to murder your child what is going to be your response? --> Want? I cannot answer that as God is Sovereign.

Do you see how stupid this sounds?

 

[AustinC]

Read my last post, you are proving my point.

I asked Does God want them to Love God and Neighbor? Answer this.

You answered: Want? I cannot answer that as God is Sovereign.

You accuse God of being a LIAR.

Satan questioned the command of God. So when God commands DON'T eat the fruit, Satan says Does that really mean God doesn't want you to eat the fruit? Your response "Want? I cannot answer that as God is Sovereign. "


If Someone asked you does God want them to murder your child what is going to be your response? --> Want? I cannot answer that as God is Sovereign.

Do you see how stupid this sounds?

Want and ordain are two different things, utilyan.
I can want people to be adopted by God. I cannot ordain it to happen.

God wants us to love him. God wants us to love our neighbor.

God does not ordain that everyone love him. God does not ordain that everyone love their neighbors.

God leaves people in their sin or he, by grace, chooses to redeem them from their sins.

Romans 1:18-25 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

Utilyan, scripture is clear and you are wrong about God. Instead, you actually accuse God without knowing what you do.

 

[utilyan]

Want and ordain are two different things, utilyan.
I can want people to be adopted by God. I cannot ordain it to happen.

God wants us to love him. God wants us to love our neighbor.

God does not ordain that everyone love him. God does not ordain that everyone love their neighbors.

God leaves people in their sin or he, by grace, chooses to redeem them from their sins.

Romans 1:18-25 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

Utilyan, scripture is clear and you are wrong about God. Instead, you actually accuse God without knowing what you do.

Yes want and ordain are two different things. So lets clarify what God WANTS AND DESIRES FIRST.

For example God does not want you to SIN ever again, not today, not tomorrow, not yesterday.

Do you agree God has never wanted you to sin EVER, yet you have because God ordains it so?

 

[AustinC]

Yes want and ordain are two different things. So lets clarify what God WANTS AND DESIRES FIRST.

For example God does not want you to SIN ever again, not today, not tomorrow, not yesterday.

Do you agree God has never wanted you to sin EVER, yet you have because God ordains it so?

Sure, God doesn't want me to sin, but God ordains that I have the capacity to sin.

God wants all people to repent, but God does not ordain that all people will repent.

 

[utilyan]

Sure, God doesn't want me to sin, but God ordains that I have the capacity to sin.

God wants all people to repent, but God does not ordain that all people will repent.

"God wants all people to repent, but God does not ordain that all people will repent."

Correct. God wants and desires all people to be saved, but God does not ordain that all people will be saved.

Is this right?

 

[AustinC]

"God wants all people to repent, but God does not ordain that all people will repent."

Correct. God wants and desires all people to be saved, but God does not ordain that all people will be saved.

Is this right?

Did I stutter?

 

[utilyan]

Did I stutter?

If your not confirming then you are stuttering.

 

[AustinC]

If your not confirming then you are stuttering.

How so?

Is God horrible and mean and cruel to not save all humanity?

 

[utilyan]

How so?

Is God horrible and mean and cruel to not save all humanity?

No. If something is totally corrupt as to be evil there is nothing there to save.

It would be evil on God's part not to destroy all that is evil even. That said we both have different interpretations on the means by which God does so.

This however is irrelevant to my question which you are still not confirming.

God wants and desires all people to be saved, but God does not ordain that all people will be saved.
Is this right? as in correct and accurate?

The kind of answer I am expecting is....Yes that is right. or No that is wrong.

"God wants all people to repent, but God does not ordain that all people will repent."

Your telling us God doesn't ordain what he wants, So its fascinating to find out who you think the real boss is since you obviously don't think its God.