Faulty Theology

[Reformed1689]

I presume they're defining life as having the Spirit. But it's the Spirit that gives us life. Our perseverance and eternal life is guaranteed by the Sprit Himself, not the life he gave us.

At least I'm guessing that's where they're going. I thought this argument was put to rest 1500 years ago.

There is nothing new under the sun.

 

[Calminian]

There is nothing new under the sun.

Guess not. If Biden can make a comeback, why not Pelagius?

Rom. 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.​

 

[MB]

We are born with a sin nature, as we are dead in our sins and transgressions!

The Bible does not say we are born with a sin nature. That is Calvinist thinking and presumptions.
MB

 

[Calminian]

The Bible does not say we are born with a sin nature. That is Calvinist thinking and presumptions.
MB

No, it's the Arminian position also. This is not a Cal v. Arm debate. Arminius fought this idea of Pelagianism vigorously.

 

[Dave G]

All,
I've decided not to read the other 8 pages of this thread because I don't think it's necessary to re-hash what was written in the prior one.
But for the record, I saw something that I thought needed to be addressed and I didn't really see it being answered by anyone in the last thread.

From another thread: Faulty Logic, Faulty Theology

@MB said, "Adam dying on the day he sinned is not in scripture therefore is not an interpretation but speculation."

Scripture actually says,

" And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." ( Genesis 2:16-17, AV)

" and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' " ( Genesis 2:17, Young's ).

" “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” ( Genesis 2:16-17, NKJV )

No speculation...
It actually happened.

If God says something will happen, it always does.
That's the difference between man, who can lie, and God who cannot lie.
When we say something will happen, it may or may not.
If He does, it always comes to pass.


@JonC said, " EXACTLY. Not only is it not in Scripture but other passages directly refute the idea. I really do not know why this conversation can continue except people are indoctrinated to a theology and will simply not rely on Scripture itself (what is actually written).

Jon,
It IS in Scripture.

As I see it, the conversation continues because some people look at the words on the page and take note of them, while it seems some do not.
But in case you missed the significance, I've just posted the relevant Scripture so that you and MB can look at it and see the words on the page.

The Lord promised what would happen when Adam ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
The Scripture tells us what the penalty was...death.
It also tells us when that penalty would take effect...that very day.

When God promises something will happen, it does.

 

[MB]

Scripture actually does state we are dead in sin. So was Adam somehow exempt from this statement of Scripture? It's not only important to me. It is directly found in Scripture and the fact that it is not important to you is a little concerning.

First of all, you have enough to worry about with your own misunderstandings. You do not under stand the term dead. You believe it to be non mobile. Death is nothing more than a separation from God. The spirit is only considered dead to God. If this weren't so then when a sinner dies his spirit is unconscious of the fact he is in hell. He feels no pain, no loneliness, No gnashing of teeth. No misery.. Punishment for his sin would be like beating a dead horse
MB

 

[MB]

No, it's the Arminian position also. This is not a Cal v. Arm debate. Arminius fought this idea of Pelagianism vigorously.

Yes we know and he murdered Michael Severstus You Calvinist like to force your beliefs on others which makes you no better than the Catholics.
MB

 

[Dave G]

Death is nothing more than a separation from God.

" This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. " ( Ephesians 4:17-19 ).

 

[HankD]

YThere is no Adam died past tense. You have not established that Adam died spiritually the day he sinned. The verse you presented to prove it does not say Adam died. It says "dying and die" neither of which confirms that he died spiritually.
MB

true, but Romans 5:12 says " by one man sin entered into the world", Who else could it be.
Admittedly the orthodox doctrine of "Original Sin" (I don't like its moniker) is controversial in its various forms, some even denying it,

Personally I prefer the orthodox/calvinistic/reformed view which is derived from the RCC version (but not that holy water washes it away). Also I am not a calvinist,

This is one of those items which given enough time the brethren here at the BB start throwing each other into the lake of fire. think ill bow out.

 

[Calminian]

...he Lord promised what would happen when Adam ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
The Scripture tells us what the penalty was...death.
It also tells us when that penalty would take effect...that very day..

This is a different issues. Actually, the text says Adam's death would become a certainty the day he ate, not that he would die that day. He became a sinner that day, as did all his descendants. But dying you will die is an idiomatic phrase to convey certainty, not immediacy. There's a lot of information available on this.

Genesis 2:17—“You Shall Surely Die”
Answers in Genesis

 

[Calminian]

Yes we know and he murdered Michael Severstus You Calvinist like to force your beliefs on others which makes you no better than the Catholics.
MB

What does Severstus have to do with this? I don't defend any sinful actions by anyone, including Calvin or Pelagius. I'm not for putting heretics to death. Merely pointing out their heresy. These battles in Church history are merely a manifestation of the sin nature and the fall.

 

[Dave G]

Actually, the text says Adam's death would become a certainty the day he ate, not that he would die that day

Let's read it again:

" And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." ( Genesis 2:16-17, AV)

The text says, "In the day you eat of it, you shall surely die".
I've underlined and bolded the words for emphasis, so that it's easier to see what they say.

Believing the very words for what they say:

Not only did it become a certainty, it actually came to pass.
God made a promise that in the very day they ate of it, they would die.

What was that "death"?

 

[Calminian]

true, but Romans 5:12 says " by one man sin entered into the world", Who else could it be.
Admittedly the orthodox doctrine of "Original Sin" (I don't like its moniker) is controversial in its various forms, some even denying it,

Personally I prefer the orthodox/calvinistic/reformed view which is derived from the RCC version (but not that holy water washes it away). Also I am not a calvinist,

This is one of those items which given enough time the brethren here at the BB start throwing each other into the lake of fire. think ill bow out.

Indeed. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. How can we call Adam making us sinners anything but spiritual death. What other concept could Paul be speaking of?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes, I think it's a possibility that if Adam had never eaten of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and had access to eat the fruit of the tree of life, he could have been immortal. Gen. 3:22.

That's not what I asked you. Do you think it's a possibility that Adam might never have sinned and still died?

 

[Calminian]

Let's read it again:

" And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." ( Genesis 2:16-17, AV)

The text says, "In the day you eat of it, you shall surely die".
I've underlined and bolded the words for emphasis, so that it's easier to see what they say.

Believing the very words for what they say:

Not only did it become a certainty, it actually came to pass.
God made a promise that in the very day they ate of it, they would die.

What was that "death"?

It actually doesn't say that in the hebrew. From Young's:

17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'​

Dying you shall die is the literal translation. It is an idiom that conveys certainty, not immediacy.

Another example of where this phrase is used is in the Shimei and Solomon story. Solomon made a similar threat, and carried it out days later.

You're moving from one error to another, by taking physical death out of God's warning. To dust you will return can be understood only as physical death.

 

[Dave G]

It actually doesn't say that in the hebrew. From Young's:

17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'
Dying you shall die is the literal translation. It is an idiom that conveys certainty, not immediacy.

Another example of where this phrase is used is in the Shimei and Solomon story. Solomon made a similar threat, and carried it out days later.

You're moving from one error to another, by taking physical death out of God's warning.

Never mind.
Have a good evening sir.

 

[MB]

true, but Romans 5:12 says " by one man sin entered into the world", Who else could it be.
Admittedly the orthodox doctrine of "Original Sin" (I don't like its moniker) is controversial in its various forms, some even denying it,

I'm denying it completely. All who are called or drawn can be saved and all are drawn Jn 12 32. There is no inability that is plain nonsense and it isn't in scripture.. I reject all of Calvinism.

Personally I prefer the orthodox/calvinistic/reformed view which is derived from the RCC version (but not that holy water washes it away). Also I am not a calvinist,

This is one of those items which given enough time the brethren here at the BB start throwing each other into the lake of fire. think ill bow out.

I understand they already are. This is not personnel between us I still like you no matter what.
MB

 

[Calminian]

Never mind.
Have a good evening sir.

Dave there are 2 errors often made about the Fall. One is that Adam did not spiritually die. We agree on this. But the other is serious also, saying that God only warned Adam about spiritual death not physical death. This is commonly held by those denying the literalness of the Creation account. There are bad arguments to go around. We need to stay away from all of them.

 

[Calminian]

I'm denying it completely. All who are called or drawn can be saved and all are drawn Jn 12 32. There is no inability that is plain nonsense and it isn't in scripture.. I reject all of Calvinism.

Your'e confusing 2 issues. Arminius and Wesley believed in original sin, and the need for a prevenient grace to break through one's depravity (spiritual death). Calvin believed this grace was efficacious. There's an argument over this. But not over the clear teaching of original sin and Adam's spiritual death.

 

[AustinC]

Please post the scripture and put in bold where it says Adam was created spirit and died spiritually.

I have but will again.

Also, the "bully pulpit" comment is uncalled for. I discuss as a member, not a moderator. I always allow others to moderate posts where I am an interested party and to be honest I resent the implication as it questions my integrity (something I have not done to you).

First, post the scripture that says Adam had no spirit, but when he disobeyed he was spiritually dead.

Second, I am happy if you recuse yourself from moderating or closing any threads in which you have joined as a commentator.