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Featured What is the Lord's day according to scripture alone?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Alofa Atu, Mar 26, 2020.

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  1. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    What is the Lord's day according to scripture alone? Let the Bible speak:

    The "Lord's day" according to scripture, is the 7th day, the sabbath day of the Lord.

    Genesis 2:1-3,4 - 'the seventh day', 'God', 'day', 'the LORD God' [… God [the LORD] … day …]

    Exodus 16:23 - "the LORD", "to morrow [the seventh day] is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD' [... the LORD ... [day] ...]

    Exodus 16:25 - 'to day [the seventh day]; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day' [... the LORD ... day]

    Exodus 20:8-11 - 'the sabbath day', 'the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God', 'sabbath day' [... the LORD ... day ...]

    Exodus 31:15 - 'the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD ... the sabbath day' [... the LORD ... day]

    Exodus 35:2,3 - 'the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD', 'the sabbath day' [… the LORD … day …]

    Leviticus 23:3 - 'the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD'

    Deuteronomy 5:12,14 – 'the LORD', 'the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God' [… the LORD … day …]

    Psalms 92:1 - 'A Psalm or Song for the sabbath day. It is a good thing to give thanks unto the LORD'

    Isaiah 56:6 - 'Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath [day] from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant' (context new covenant) [... the LORD ... sabbath [day] ...]

    Isaiah 58:13 - 'the sabbath ... my [the LORD's] holy day ... the holy [day] of the Lord' [... [the LORD's] ... day]

    Isaiah 66:22,23 – 'the LORD', 'one sabbath [day] to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD' [… the LORD … [day] …]

    Jeremiah 17:21 - 'saith the LORD... on the sabbath day' [... the LORD ... day]

    Matthew 12:8 - 'the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day' [... the ... Lord ... day]

    Mark 2:28 - 'the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day' [... the ... Lord ... day]

    Luke 6:5 - 'the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath [day]' [... the ... Lord ... [day]]

    Revelation 1:10 - 'the Lord's day'
     
  2. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    The context shows that the "day" spoken of, in each texts presented is "the LORD('s)". John as a physical Jew, who was following the Messiah (Jesus), thus a Christian, was on the Isle of Patmos, for what reason?

    Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

    Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.​

    It is even given in other places:

    Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

    Rev_20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    What is this "word of God" and the "testimony/witness of Jesus"? We do not have to in any way guess, for John tells us in parallel fashion:

    Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.​

    This is found way back in the OT:

    Deu_4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.​

    So, when John references "the Lord's day", it is in the context of "the word of God", which are God's Commandments. Well, which commandment then? Again, we do not have to guess, for John tells us:

    Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
    What specific commandment, was John citing? The 4th Commandment, specifically, Exodus 20:11,

    Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​

    The whole Commandment:

    Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
    Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
    Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
    That little word "of" is possessive. Thus when God speaks, by His own voice, the He (the LORD) has chosen a specific (definite article) "day", it is thus "the LORD('s) ... day", being His sabbath, the 7th day, from the foundation of the world in Genesis 2:1-3, where therein it is "God('s; the LORD's) ... day".

    The "word of God" = God's commandments:

    Isa_1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.​

    and the "testimony of Jesus" is the Spirit of prophecy (Revelation 19:10), and as found all throughout scripture:

    2Ki_17:13 Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments and my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets.

    Psa_19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

    Psa_78:5 For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children

    Pro_29:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.
    :
    Isa_8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

    Isa_8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    Lam_2:9 Her gates are sunk into the ground; he hath destroyed and broken her bars: her king and her princes are among the Gentiles: the law is no more; her prophets also find no vision from the LORD.

    Eze_7:26 Mischief shall come upon mischief, and rumour shall be upon rumour; then shall they seek a vision of the prophet; but the law shall perish from the priest, and counsel from the ancients.

    Mat_22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

    Rom_3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    Therefore, notice again the connection of the Apostle and prophet John, who receives a "vision", in connection with keeping God's commandments, and was resting specifically on "the LORD's day":

    Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,​

    The Law (Lord's day) and the testimony (spirit of prophecy) again are witnessed therein.

    Even in Isaiah 58:13, in many 'modern' translations, the phrase "the LORD's holy day" appear - Isaiah 58:13 - Bible Gateway

    "Holy" is merely the adjective.

    It always speaks of the 7th day the sabbath of the LORD, His holy day.

    Line upon line, and no need for a single non-scriptural source to re-define by the man of sin's tradition.
     
  3. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 1:10:

    Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

    Rev 1:10 εγενομην εν πνευματι εν τη κυριακη ημερα και ηκουσα οπισω μου φωνην μεγαλην ως σαλπιγγος

    Rev 1:10 I wasG1096 inG1722 the SpiritG4151 onG1722 theG3588 Lord'sG2960 day,G2250 andG2532 heardG191 behindG3694 meG3450 a greatG3173 voice,G5456 asG5613 of a trumpet,G4536

    Rev 1:10 εγενομηνG1096 V-2ADI-1S ενG1722 PREP πνευματιG4151 N-DSN ενG1722 PREP τηG3588 T-DSF κυριακηG2960 A-DSF ημεραG2250 N-DSF καιG2532 CONJ ηκουσαG191 V-AAI-1S οπισωG3694 ADV μουG1473 P-1GS φωνηνG5456 N-ASF μεγαληνG3173 A-ASF ωςG5613 ADV σαλπιγγοςG4536 N-GSF​

    The word "κυριακη" (translit. "kuriake") is an Adjective - Dative - Singular - Feminine. This means it is being used as a 'possessive' ("of", see 1 Corinthians 11:20, "the Lord's supper"), which means the "day" in context belongs to "the Lord". It is literally "the Lord's (belonging to) day". This means, that the "day" in context is uniquely "the Lord's" out of all the 7 days of the week, for the day under consideration is that which exists within the week, as a day which repeats weekly. This is extremely important, as those who incorrectly assume it to mean "the first [day] of the week" in lieu of Jesus' resurrection, cannot get a weekly occurrence out of a one-time event, in fulfilment of typology of the Firstfruit/Wavesheaf in Leviticus 23:9-14, as made known in 1 Corinthians 15:20,23..

    This is not as the phrase "day of the Lord" (ἡμέρα κυρίου) which is written in the genitive masculine case (see 2 Peter 3:10, etc, and also so called septuaginta uses).

    In Latin, we see it similarly used in Exodus 20 (Latin is without the definite article, as Latin does not use definite articles):

    Rev 1:10 fui in spiritu in dominica die et audivi post me vocem magnam tamquam tubae

    Exo 20:8 memento ut diem sabbati sanctifices
    Exo 20:9 sex diebus operaberis et facies omnia opera tua
    Exo 20:10 septimo autem die sabbati Domini Dei tui non facies omne opus tu et filius tuus et filia tua servus tuus et ancilla tua iumentum tuum et advena qui est intra portas tuas
    Exo 20:11 sex enim diebus fecit Dominus caelum et terram et mare et omnia quae in eis sunt et requievit in die septimo idcirco benedixit Dominus diei sabbati et sanctificavit eum
    Which is akin to Genesis' "God's day":

    Gen 2:1 igitur perfecti sunt caeli et terra et omnis ornatus eorum
    Gen 2:2 conplevitque Deus die septimo opus suum quod fecerat et requievit die septimo ab universo opere quod patrarat
    Gen 2:3 et benedixit diei septimo et sanctificavit illum quia in ipso cessaverat ab omni opere suo quod creavit Deus ut faceret
    Whereas the differing apocalyptic day, "the day of the Lord" in Latin is "dies Domini" as in Zephaniah 1:14:

    Zep 1:14 iuxta est dies Domini magnus iuxta et velox nimis vox diei Domini amara tribulabitur ibi fortis
    In Isaiah 58:13, we read of a "day" that "the Lord" specifically calls "my day":

    Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:​

    In many translations of Isaiah 58:13 we read that the 7th day, the sabbath of the Lord, is said to be "the Lord's holy day", with the word holy being another adjective, while the "Lord's" is possessive. - /Isaiah 58:13 - Bible Gateway

    Thus when reading Isaiah 58:13 with simple pronoun substitution, it would read "... the ... [Lord's] day ...", just as it does in Exodus 20:8-11.

    Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
    Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
    Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
    Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.​

    In Genesis we see why this day is uniquely "Gods'", or "the Lord's" day, for in it God rested. This is the reason Jesus could say:

    Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.​

    For in that He created in Genesis, and rested, Colossians 1:16.

    Further, we can see some honest persons, among the many commentators that like to simply assume their apriori into the text, or to place future definition back into the text, from non-scriptural materials.

    Peter Pett's commentary makes this accurate note:

    "... Sunday is not called ‘the Lord’s day’ (he kyriake hemera) anywhere in Scripture ..." .

    Dr. Thomas Constable likewise states the same truth:

    "... The New Testament writers never called Sunday the Lord"s day elsewhere in Scripture. ..." .

    Richard Chenevix Trench has stated on record, and accurately that:


    "... “Some have assumed, from this passage, that ἡμέρα κυριακή was a designation of Sunday already familiar among Christians. This, however, seems a mistake ..." .
    Likewise, Foy E Wallace states:

    "... It is not a reference to the first day of the week ..." .
     
  4. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Another thing I have found, is that people attempt to define "the Lord's day", not by scripture, as is proper, by the so-called "ECF" (easily confused fellows; of the 1-4th century AD, etc), instead of going back to the real "fathers"; the Patriarchs and Prophets of Scripture themselves, like John, James and Peter and Paul, and even further back unto Abraham, Moses, David, and those like them, and have those "fathers" tell us, as mouthpieces for God. I find them in the inspired and preserved words of God, and I do not find people like spurious Ignatius, imaginary Didache, self-refuting pseudo Barnabas, etc.

    They would place those persons in afteryears above the definition that Jesus gave.

    Spurious and Imaginary?

    Yes, Spurious, Imaginary, etc:

    The writings so often cited to try to define "the Lord's day" outside of scripture, and long after John passed from the scene, are often forged (like Ignatius) and also abused, of which any may see that here - Sunday Fraud: Church "Fathers" on the Lord's Day

    The Bible says:

    Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.​

    God even warned all that they would "think" to "change times and laws" (of which the 4th Commandment, the 7th day the Sabbath of the LORD is both time and law) of the Most High God:

    Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.​

    Notice some of the fraud:

    Here is the long form of the citation, since there are several conflicting:

    "... For if we still live according to the Jewish law, and the circumcision of the flesh, we deny that we have received grace.—ch. 8.

    But let every one of you keep the Sabbath after a spiritual manner, rejoicing in meditation on the law, not in relaxation of the body, admiring the workmanship of God, and not eating things prepared the day before, nor using lukewarm drinks, and walking within a prescribed space, nor finding delight in dancing and plaudits which have no sense in them. And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and chief of all the days [of the week].—ch. 9.

    It is absurd to speak of Jesus Christ with the tongue, and to cherish in the mind a Judaism which has now come to an end. For where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism.—ch. 10.

    These things [I address to you], my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state; but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that you may rather attain to a full assurance in Christ . . . .—ch. 11. ..." - ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

    Let's examine the longer form first, with which the reader will immediately notice a severe problem. The very quote that is supposed to prove that "Christians . . . never [worshipped] on the Sabbath" actually commands "every" Christian to "keep the Sabbath"! Moreover, since the quote also forbids Judaizing, it follows that the writer of the long form of this epistle believed that Sabbath keeping transcended Judiaism. In other words, a Christian could tell people that they needed to keep the Sabbath without being guilty of Judaizing!

    The words "and after the observance of the Sabbath" were intentionally deleted from the quote. Another example of fraud?

    Now to the other shorter form. The epistles of Ignatius are spurious or forgeries - Link or Link.

    Amazing, having to rely upon spurious writings, pseudo-works, which are forgeries.

    The original Greek (Didache 14:1) does not have the word for "day" anywhere in that sentence and secondly, neither is the word "Sunday" present.

    "... 1. Κατὰ κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου συναχθέντες κλάσατε ἄρτον καὶ εὐχαριστήσατε, προεξομολογησάμενοι τὰ παραπτώματα ὑμῶν, ὅπως καθαρὰ ἡ θυσία ὑμῶν ᾐ. ..." - The Twelve Apostles-Didache

    Where is the word for "day" (hemera)? Where is the word for "Sunday"? Where is the word "first"?

    It literally reads, "κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου" (Lord of Lord).

    The translation that most propose to prove Sunday sacredness or that it is the 'Lord's day' is imaginary.

    So far, we have spurious and imaginary.

    Then they attempt Pseudo Barnabas:

    According to pseudo-Barnabas (ought we to really trust a letter that claims to be from another, didn't Paul warn about such letters being circulated? 2 Thessalonians 2:2), we are too wicked (Christians are too wicked???) at present to keep the 7th day the Sabbath of the LORD, and will not be able to keep it until we are sanctified when Christ returns (so we are going to keep Sabbath again in the New Heavens and New Earth, that doesn't sound like people use this quote for). Because we are too wicked to keep the Sabbath now, we must keep Sunday instead. What good does this reasoning do for the cause of Sunday sacredness or holiness if we are too wicked?

    Pseudo Barnabas also teaches the earth ends in the 7,000th year from creation. Do they accept this also?, No, as they believe in the false philosophy of evolutionism and long-agism.

    Any may also see the forgery of Justin Martyr here - Doctrine - Sabbath - William H Shea - The Justin Martyr Forgery About Sabbath And Sunday The First Day Of The Week : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
     
  5. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Some have said that "the Lord's day" is simply unique, and that if John (in Revelation 1:10) had meant "sabbath" he would have written "sabbath". This is actually presumption, based upon a false apriori, about what certain individuals themselves think the Holy Ghost/Spirit ought to have inspired John to write. Beware, that is a very dangerous path to take. They also say that "sabbath" is always called "sabbath" in the NT.

    Actually, No. The "sabbath" is called "sabbath" in the NT, that is for certain:

    Matthew 12:1,2,5,8,10,11,12, 24:20, 28:1;
    Mark 1:21, 2:23,24,27,28, 3:2,4, 6:2, 7:6-9, 15:42, 16:1;
    Luke 4:16,31, 6:1,2,5,6,7,9, 13:10,14,15,16, 14:1,3,5, 23:54,56;
    John 5:9,10,16,18, 7:22,23, 9:14,16, 12:1 (calculated), 19:31;
    Acts 1:2, 13:14,27,42,44, 15:21, 16:13, 17:2, 18:4;​

    Yet, it is also called God's "rest":

    Hebrews 3:11,18, 4:1,3,4,5,8,9,10,11​

    It is also called "the seventh day":

    Hebrews 4:4​

    It is called "the seventh":

    Hebrews 4:4​

    It is also referred to as being "according to the commandment":

    Luke 23:56​

    It is also referred to as the culmination of the 7 day week:

    Matthew 28:1(a) - (Koine Greek) οψε δε σαββατων (Transliterated) oye de sabbatwn
    Matthew 28:1(b) - (Koine Greek) εις μιαν σαββατων (Transliterated) eiV mian sabbatwn
    Mark 16:2 - (Koine Greek) και λιαν πρωι της μιας σαββατων (Transliterated) kai lian prwi ths mias sabbatwn
    Mark 16:9 - (Koine Greek) αναστας δε πρωι πρωτη σαββατου (Transliterated) anastas de prwi prwth sabbatou
    Luke 24:1 - (Koine Greek) τη δε μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th de mia twn sabbatwn
    John 20:1 - (Koine Greek) τη δε μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th de mia twn sabbatwn
    John 20:19 - (Koine Greek) τη μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) th mia twn sabbatwn
    Acts 20:7 - (Koine Greek) εν δε τη μια των σαββατων (Transliterated) en de th mia twn sabbatwn
    1 Corinthians 16:2 - (Koine Greek) κατα μιαν σαββατων (Transliterated) kata mian sabbatwn​

    It is also referred to as "the day (that is approaching in the week (also the great Cosmic final day, dual use)"

    Hebrews 10:25​

    All of which terms are also used in the OT, as the OT and NT are in perfect harmony.

    The Phrase "the Lord's day" is found in use in the OT, as shown from Isaiah 58:13, etc. John is not making up any novel (new) idea, but the Holy Ghost is insipiring and citing from the OT scriptures, as is done all over Revelation 1. Called an "epanados" or Chiasm:

    (1) Isaiah 55:4 --> Revelation 1:5 (Witness)

    (2) Daniel 7:13 --> Revelation 1:7 (Coming with Clouds of angels)

    (3) Zechariah 12:10-14 --> Revelation 1:7 (Pierced and Wail)

    (4) Isaiah 41:4,6 --> Revelation 1:8 (I AM)

    (4) Isaiah 41:4,6 --> Revelation 1:11 (I AM)

    (3) Zechariah 4:2 --> Revelation 1:12 (Candlestick, Sanctuary, HolyPlace)

    (2) Daniel 7:9,13,22 --> Revelation 1:13-15 (Priest)

    (1) Isaiah 49:2 --> Revelation 1:16 (Sharp Sword)

    Revelation 1:10 is simply citing Isaiah 58:13 in the midst of the parallelism from the OT.

    Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my [the LORD's] holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:​

    A deeper study on the structure of Daniel and Revelation may be seen here - Link to Daniel & Revelation Structure

    Here is a small picture of it:

    Full Image here Link

    [​IMG]

    I have even shown that Jesus is referring to this same phrase in the Gospels:

    Matthew 12:8 - 'the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day' [... the ... Lord ... day]

    Mark 2:28 - 'the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day' [... the ... Lord ... day]

    Luke 6:5 - 'the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath [day]' [... the ... Lord ... [day]]
     
  6. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 58:13 in various translations:

    KJB - "... my [context, the LORD's] holy day ..."

    CJB - “... Adonai’s holy day ..."

    ERV - "... the Lord’s special day ..."

    EXB - “... the Lord’s holy day ..."

    GW - "... the Lord’s holy day ..."

    ICB - “... the Lord’s holy day ..."

    ISV - "... the Lord’s holy day ..."

    TLB - "... the Lord’s holy day ..."

    MSG - "... God’s holy day ..."

    NOG - "... Yahweh’s holy day ..."

    NABRE - "... the Lord’s holy day ..."

    NCV - "... the Lord’s holy day ..."

    NET - "... the Lord’s holy day ..."

    NIRV - "... the Lord’s holy day ..."

    NIV - "... the Lord’s holy day ..."

    NIVUK - "... the Lord’s holy day ..."

    NLT - "... the Lord’s holy day ..."

    TPT - "... Yahweh’s holy day ..."
     
  7. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    For the Christian that would be Sunday. Muslims worship on Friday and the Jews worship on Saturday. There, the truth all concise and neat!
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  8. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Apostate Christianity 'worships' on 'Sunday', Muslims 'worship' on 'Friday', and 'Jews' (so called) indeed do 'worship' on 'Saturday' (as they do not acknowledge the Lord of the Sabbath, Jesus), but Bible Christians worship God 24/7/365, and Honour God by Keeping His Sabbath, the seventh day, the Lord's day, Holy, by resting with Him, as He asks of us (Exodus 20:8-11).

    Sabbath and Saturday are two differing things.

    There, the truth all concise and neat (corrected)!
     
  9. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    "Apostate Christianity 'worships' on 'Sunday'"

    Apostate when? All early Christians worshiped on Sunday.

    You know if the entire GOSPEL banked on what day you worship you'd think there would be a whole epistle or chapter devoted.

    So we can clearly deduce, surmise and understand, That you believe GOD is SOOOOOO STUPID he forgot to write that one down.

    In fact he you must think he is such a moron he actually writes instead whole chapters telling you it DOESN'T"T MATTER WHAT DAY.you worship.

    What an utter failure God is that its up to YOU to step in and have to explain things for GOD since you obviously believe him to be too dumb to convey anything himself.

    You have written multiple threads about this subject, in fact you have an entire denominational obsession who PREACH #1 the bible is too flawed and badly written to teach the most important rule off all.

    I have absolutely ZERO problem conveying the most important rules of Christianity, I can simply quote JESUS CHRIST.


    But have you ever heard Jesus Christ whine about folks not worshipping on correct day? Never. Why? Because BEING GOD makes him immune of teaching stupid things.
     
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  10. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    The tradition became Sunday worship for the Christian very quickly as the scriptures so clearly tell us. "Hold fast to the traditions we have passed on to you whether by word of mouth or by letter" 2 Thess 2:15.

    Hey genius, this Sunday worship was one of them!
     
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  11. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever read Hebrews chapters 3-4?
     
  12. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Consider:

    2Th_2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (false letters were already circulating)

    2Th_2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    2Th 2:3 μη τις υμας εξαπατηση κατα μηδενα τροπον οτι εαν μη ελθη η αποστασια πρωτον και αποκαλυφθη ο ανθρωπος της αμαρτιας ο υιος της απωλειας​

    2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    2Th 2:7 το γαρ μυστηριον ηδη ενεργειται της ανομιας μονον ο κατεχων αρτι εως εκ μεσου γενηται​

    1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
    1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

    1Jn_2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (see also Gen_4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. and Jud_1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.)

    Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
    Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
    Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

    2Co_2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

    2Co_11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
    2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
    2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    Rev_2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
     
  13. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    "Tradition":

    What does our brother Paul mean by the words "the tradition" in 2 Thessalonians 3:6?

    2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

    "tradition", "traditions" - bad sense

    In certain passages the word "custom" simply means a positive habit, or repeated action (Luke 4:16, likewise "manner" (Acts 17:2)).

    Other times it means a place of gathering taxation, as "sitting at the receipt of custom" (Matthew 9:9 - Mark 2:14 - Luke 5:27), or giving "custom to whom custom" (Romans 13:7) is due.

    Also, it can mean a bad tradition, a wicked custom.

    "custom" - evil or heathen sense


    "customs" - wicked sense

    There are two known places that the word "tradition" is utilized in a positive meaning.

    "tradition" - good sense


    Brothers and sisters, we should study this together and look at all of the connecting words, and ask our Father for understanding to understand what this means so that we are united together by the word. Let us read the surrounding words, and allow the Holy Spirit of God to enlighten us by teaching us what these things mean.

    In prayerfully reading the text, and asking God about this, I continued to read, and here is what I was shown in the same place.

    2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
    2Th 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
    2Th 3:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
    2Th 3:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
    2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
    2Th 3:11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
    2Th 3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
    2Th 3:13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
    2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
    2Th 3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.​

    As instructed of God, "the tradition" that Paul speaks of, is not "walking disorderly" (vs 6), and to "follow us", being the example of Paul and others, who "walked not disorderly" (vs 7), and did not "eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you" (vs 8), so that they would be an "ensample unto you who follow us" (vs 9).

    We see "commandment" (vss 6,10,12) in regards "the tradition" (vs 10), in that "if any would not work, neither should he eat.", and that this was the orderliness and ensample of Paul's life. This is then contrasted in the next verse to those who are "disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies." (vs 11). This same "command" and exhortation is that those who are presently "disorderly" should "with quietness they work, and eat their own bread." (vs 12) as Paul and others did.

    Paul finishes out by telling them who are orderly to "continue in well doing" (vs 13), as they had learned of his own ensample and manner of living, laboring with his own hands to provide for himself while ministering the Gospel.

    This is "the tradition", the living custom, the continued godly habit of Paul that he speaks of, and was this that is handed down, in example, in demonstration. Work for the Lord instead of going about as "busybodies", who are "working not at all", "walking disorderly", and who expected to eat of the food of the group, when they would not work with their hands as Paul. No free lunch, and whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might,, as unto the Lord, might best sum it up.

    The "and" in this instance means in contrast between the false walking and the true walking.

    Example

    I can say, "Turn not to the left as others and turn to the right as myself."

    "walking disorderly" is in contrast with the walking orderly which is "the tradition" or custom or habit set by Paul and others as the example.

    2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.​

    It could then be paraphrased as such

    (paraphrased in part) withdraw yourselves away from every brother that is walking disorderly and not after the habit of orderly walking which he received of us by example.

    See in vs (7)

    2 Thessalonians 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;​

    The "follow us" is "the tradition", the habit that Paul and others had set amongst them. May I show you? Paul refers back to the previous time in 1 Thessalonians

    1 Thessalonians 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.​

    I see yet a little more in that Paul bases that commandment on his own manner and habit and knowledge of the scriptures, as he himself followed the example of Jesus to work with his own hands and to follow the commandments of God in the word of God.

    Paul was raised as an Hebrew of the Hebrews, and thus skills, such as tent making, carpentry, fishing and the like were taught unto the children in life, that they might find the enjoyment and blessing of true labouring, to reap the reward through such. Like as gardening. He who does not sow does not reap. Paul would also have backing for this in the Old Testament texts,

    Proverbs 12:24 The hand of the diligent shall bear rule: but the slothful shall be under tribute.

    Proverbs 12:27 The slothful man roasteth not that which he took in hunting: but the substance of a diligent man is precious.

    Proverbs 18:9 He also that is slothful in his work is brother to him that is a great waster.

    Proverbs 19:24 A slothful man hideth his hand in his bosom, and will not so much as bring it to his mouth again.

    Proverbs 26:15 The slothful hideth his hand in his bosom; it grieveth him to bring it again to his mouth.​

    The prayerful and thoughtful responses, along with the unity of thought have helped solidify the conclusion arrived at concerning the words of Paul in regards "the tradition" in 2 Thessalonians 3:6.

    I have heard others give an entirely different meaning to these words which could not be reconciled with the text itself and strained them by forcing them to mean what they wanted them to mean, and they could not justify their position based upon the words themselves, but only added to the words their own meanings and definitions, to suit their own practices; whatever those were.

    When someone brings up the word "tradition" in regards their teaching or action, we ought to then be more careful to discern, and to ask for evidence from God's word about such practices or teaching, whether it be of God or of men.

    As a challenge to myself, and to all who read, a question to ask oneself.

    Is there anything which I personally do as a habit, a custom, a tradition, even a teaching, or even a thinking, which cannot be sustained by God's word, and might be contrary to that example therein and if so, will I give it up to follow God?
     
  14. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    "Tradition":

    Instruction was passed by mouth and written word (hence "letter", "epistle"):

    2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.​

    Paul stated that all things needed to be proved by the word of God:

    1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

    1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

    2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

    2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

    2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.​

    Jesus himself, and Paul and Peter warned of false "traditions" that were already in circulation in their day.

    Col_2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

    2Pe_3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.​

    Others were already corrupting the word:

    2Co_2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.​

    The question is what "traditions" was Paul referring to in context? Made up stuff with no other foundation than devils and men?

    2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.​

    Notice, that in 2 Thessalonians 2:2, this is referred to before:

    2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.​

    Paul already told them in 1 Thessalonians, and it was in regards the second coming (see context) and what they (Thessalonians) were to be doing unto the coming of Jesus.

    So Paul himself, actually referred to his personal face to face speaking, and also written in an earlier "our epistle". (1 Thess.)

    In 1 Thessalonians 1:3, we see that Paul commended them for their "work of faith and labour of love".

    In 1 Thessalonians 1:5 (2:2-5) it speaks of the "gospel" did not come in "word" ("speak", "exhortation", "words") only, but in "power" (Holy Spirit).

    In 1 Thessalonians 2:8 it speaks of the "gospel" having been "imparted".

    In 1 Thessalonians 2:9 it speaks of the "gospel" having been "preached" and also of the "labour and travail".

    1Th 2:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

    1Th 2:11 As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children,

    1Th 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

    1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.​

    And so Paul continues by speaking of his example of labour (not in laziness, indolence as some were, being busybodies, etc) among them, and in the gospel:

    1Th 4:1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.​

    Herein is then the "tradition" which Paul spake of that was spoken unto them:

    1Th 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

    1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

    1Th 4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;

    1Th 4:5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:

    1Th 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.

    1Th 4:7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

    1Th 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

    1Th 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

    1Th 4:10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;

    1Th 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

    1Th 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
    The Coming of the Lord

    1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

    And more:

    1Th 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

    1Th 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

    1Th 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.

    1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

    1Th 5:16 Rejoice evermore.

    1Th 5:17 Pray without ceasing.

    1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

    1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

    1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.

    1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

    1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

    1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

    1Th 5:25 Brethren, pray for us.

    1Th 5:26 Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss.

    1Th 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.

    1Th 5:28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.​

    Ain't that sumthin'.

    Paul wasn't referring to man-made 'tradition' that came along later and passed itself off as truth.

    Paul wasn't referring to some sundayin' hang time, to the 'mass' confusion, to 'transubstantiation', etc. He was specifically referring to those things just given in 1 Thessalonians.
     
  15. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    What are you talking about? The verse means that "the brother" IS NOT following the tradition that was handed down but was instead walking "disorderly" i.e. to his own tune. (Just like you do). The tradition, the direction from the Apostles is Sunday worship for the Christian. That has been the fact, the truth for all of Christendom until your gal came along in the 1800's.
     
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  16. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Scripture?
     
  17. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    Ok, quote Jesus, from scripture, on "the Lord's day" being Sunday.

    I already quoted Jesus showing that the Lord's day is the sabbath, the seventh day. Hence the OP and subsequent materials.
     
  18. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

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    I know of no such chapter in all of scripture. But when you get around to more than simply intimating about Romans 14, and cite it directly, then I will show you the context in it refutes you. Likewise, Colossians 2, as already shown here - Colossians 2, a study
    Colossians 2, a study
     
  19. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    That is like me demanding scripture that Jesus says to wear White clothes instead of Black clothes.

    Jesus never mentions any importance to observing the sabbath, BECAUSE IT IS NOT IMPORTANT.
     
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  20. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    You were indoctrinated into this obsession by a false prophetess.

    There are more than 40000 verses of scripture. And Jesus had his whole life to make a point.

    But he forgot this insanity about having to keep sabbath?

    Do you really believe GOD is SO dumb he could not make a point 40000 verses that YOU can simply do in one breathe?

    I can teach your dumb rule easily with ONE sentence. But GOD in all his divinity failed to mention your stupid rule in 40000 verses?

    And the kicker is you believe God will hold me accountable for a rule he never plainly expressed in fact rules made specifically for Jews that YOU CAN"T EVEN KEEP TODAY IF YOU TRIED.

    You want to give us a good laugh.... tell us "how to keep a sabbath".

    Chances are its stuff we been doing.
     
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