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Featured How is the Wrath Of the Father Appeased if Not PST Atonement?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, May 6, 2020.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    in post 73 you said.....OF COURSE.
    No...just the turtle in the shell illustration.
    your number system is to avoid interaction.
    we could all make a number system and just exchange numbers all day.
     
    #81 Iconoclast, May 10, 2020
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It means reconciliation. I think you mean "atoning sacrifice" rather than "atonement" (atonement achieved by the covering of sins).
     
    #82 JonC, May 10, 2020
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes.
    Consequesnes or result would work as well.
     
    #83 JonC, May 10, 2020
  4. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    You asked: "Do you believe sin has to be punished?"
    I answered: "Of course."

    Do you see the word "all" in there?



    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
     
    #84 InTheLight, May 10, 2020
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  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Both views may affirm that He is; only one view understands the holiness of God.
    There are at least three answers to this:
    1. God is not like us. We may forgive someone's sins because they don't affect us; because we ourselves are doing the same thing to others, or a whole host of other reasons. Or we may be angry for a while but let the matter drop because we have no power to do anything about it. But every sin is a sin directly against God (Genesis 39:9; Psalms 51:4), and He cannot tolerate sin (Habakkuk 1:13) precisely because He, unlike us, is utterly holy.
    2. What would you think of a human judge who let people off if they were sorry? I can't speak for the USA, but in Britain, people get really angry when someone who has, say, killed someone through dangerous driving is let off lightly because he appears contrite.
    3. God's forgiveness everywhere in the Bible is predicated upon the satisfaction for sins accomplished by God Himself in the Person of Jesus Christ. There is no other way to be saved, and those who suggest that there is are sending countless people to hell with a pocket-full of false promises.
    It is both. I have pointed out before the difference between the Sin Offering and the Trespass Offering.
    If God took a random person and made him pay for other people's sin, you might have an argument. But God Himself has paid the penalty for our sin. I'm sorry you don't like that, but it is the truth (Acts of the Apostles 20:28).
    :Rolleyes Well when you meet God you can tell Him that He's done it all wrong. But God's ways are not our ways, and even less are our ways His ways[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
     
    #85 Martin Marprelate, May 10, 2020
    Last edited: May 10, 2020
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Sorry, brother, but I can't quote your post because it is inside a quote.

    I believe that God did it all perfectly. God is both just and the justifier of sinners. I believe that the parables point to how God accomplished redemption (sending His Son to people who would kill His Son). God does not punish the Son for the crimes of others (God was not presenting one moral truth to man and another to Himself, He is that standard).

    God sent His Son to die for our sins, He lay our iniquities upon His Son, was pleased "to crush" Him, sent His Son as an "offering for sin", and Christ lay down His own life, bore our sins in His flesh, the chastening for us all fell upon Him, and it is by His stripes we are healed as He became a curse for us, became sin for us, and shared in our iniquity.

    It does not bother me that you believe God poured out His wrath upon Christ. I once believed the same. But it is not actually in the Bible, so I do not feel obligated to hold that position. I have tested it and found it false. God delivered me, I believe, from that type of thinking through diligently studying His Word. But I am accountable only for my views and my teachings, not yours.

    Consider my views, test them against Scripture, take the meat and spit out the bones. We have a a lot of common ground and common beliefs. This is not one of them. You being a teacher I suspect that you do test what you teach against Scripture. I just believe you have made some serious errors in interpretation. You believe the same of me. I am not trying to talk you into my view but encouraging you to once again reexamine your own.
     
    #86 JonC, May 10, 2020
  7. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Is the sin (singular) of the world handled differently from sins (plural)?

    What about the sin of the devil 1 John 3:8 relative to the sins of man Rom 5:12?
     
    #87 percho, May 10, 2020
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    For those who believe God poured out His wrath on Christ (or on our sins imputed to Christ), what exactly do you believe punishing Christ instead of punishing sinners accomplished? What is the purpose?
     
    #88 JonC, May 10, 2020
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  9. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Could have God offered, "himself," a lamb, through the only begotten Son born of woman, propitiation ?
     
    #89 percho, May 10, 2020
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    To become flesh, to become one of us, to share in our "sickness", to be made in the likeness of sinful flesh....yes. And He is a propitiation. In Christ we escape the wrath to come.

    But the text of Scripture does not contain, nor the teachings of the Bible remotely suggest that God poured out His wrath on Christ. Could understand how someone could believe otherwise if it were not for the passages that deny this is the character of God. Scripture states that God is just to forgive those who repent and turn to Him. Not that God must punish sin so that He can forgive sinners. There are no passages that present Christ as "drinking the cup of divine wrath" (the "cup" does not, as some will claim hoping that no one looks it up, always represent wrath).
     
    #90 JonC, May 10, 2020
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    OK what's sin does not have to be punished let me ask you that way?
     
    #91 Iconoclast, May 10, 2020
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.

    Forgiveness requires that the sins forgiven are not punished. So the answer is the sins of the forgiven, God has removed those sins as far as the east is from the west.

    Do you believe that if we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive, or do you believe that God has to punish those sins in order to be just?
     
    #92 JonC, May 10, 2020
  13. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Forgiven sins are not punished, by definition.

    Now please answer the question--Why did God pour out his wrath on his son?

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
     
    #93 InTheLight, May 10, 2020
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  14. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Seems like some are suggesting that Jesus could of come at a different time or died of Corona virus or car accident or plane crash. The fact that he just how to die somehow in some way pays for sin?
    This would suggest the priestly sacrifices that were God-given really were pointless
     
    #94 Iconoclast, May 10, 2020
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  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    All sin and sinners are punished

    In the sinner, or the substitute
     
    #95 Iconoclast, May 10, 2020
  16. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Scripture?

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
     
    #96 InTheLight, May 10, 2020
  17. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    No, no one is suggesting the strawman you just laid out. That's a #4.

    Jesus did pay for our sins. He died a terrible, painful death on the cross. The question is about God's wrath being poured out on Jesus. Show me where that is found in the Bible.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
     
    #97 InTheLight, May 10, 2020
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  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I don't want anyone to cry that I'm offering too many scripture versus so we could just start
    by looking at Genesis chapter 6 to 8 there was thing that happened called the world wide flood that killed all but a people and punish them for this sins.
     
    #98 Iconoclast, May 10, 2020
  19. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Oops! Sorry! I've tidied it up now.
     
    #99 Martin Marprelate, May 10, 2020
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  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    This is so strange (it is not the first time Iconoclast has made this claim).

    Scripture teaches that God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, to suffer and die at the hands of wicked men. How does dying of COVID-19 equate to dying "at the hands of wicked men"?

    The Cross is the place where the powers and principles of evil were against Christ (where Christ was suffering the wages of sin that we are to suffer but at the hands of those for whom He came to save). The underlying criminal in the event is not God but the principles and powers of this world, of evil. The Cross is a picture of this.

    BUT interestingly enough, YOUR view does not necessitate the cross. Christ could have died simply of COVID-19 if he was spiritually tormented by God in this death. Scripture does not describe the "punishment for sin" to be crucifixion on a cross. The cross is not necessary, Christ's physical suffering is not even necessary, under you view.
     
    #100 JonC, May 10, 2020
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