Featured Were OT saints born again?

Yet another "taint so" post devoid of on topic discussion. Read post #56 and behold the evidence.

The fiction that OT saints were born anew is posted and reposted every year of so. Jesus had not died, therefore the "washing of regeneration" in Christ was not available to the OT Saints. That is why they had to "wait" to be made perfect. That is why they could not be indwelt. Only a born anew person can be indwelt. Everyone follows Christ in the regeneration, no one was regenerated before Christ died. He is the first born. I can go on and on but what is the use? This myth has OT Saints being placed in Christ, reborn, and sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit as a pledge for our bodily redemption, without any support from scripture.

John 14:16-17 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him or knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.

 

Then why don't you ever use it?

Is this an example for us all or is Peter a 'special case' here?:

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven. Mt 16

I challenge you, use your Bible and show me whether it applies to all Christians or is just a 'one-off'.

 

So, Yes. The Holy Spirit both seals and abides. Two distinct attributes. One behind the scenes, since conception. The other when we yield control to the Holy Spirit instead of our own nature that desires sin.

 

Did you not read John 14:17? The world cannot receive the Spirit, thus the Spirit neither abides nor seals folks who have not been born anew. Only those born anew, are sealed forever with indwelling.

 

In the 1e. portion of John Gill's treatment of the ways in which The Old and New Testament Covenants agree, he lists several Blessings In the blessings of it;

Salvation
Justification
Forgiveness of sins
Regeneration
Eternal Life.

The scriptures stated are an enormous blessing on the subject of this question.

"In a word, they and we eat the same spiritual meat, and drink the same spiritual drink, for they drank of that Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ, #1Co 10:3,4.

"they are the same under both administrations. Salvation and redemption by Christ is the great blessing held forth and enjoyed under the one as under the other, #2Sa 23:5 Heb 9:15.

"Justification by the righteousness of Christ, which the Old Testament church had knowledge of, and faith in, as well as the new, #Isa 45:24,25 Ro 3:21-23.

"Forgiveness of sin through faith in Christ, all the prophets bore witness to; and the saints of old, as now, had as comfortable an application of it, #Ps 32:1,5 Isa 43:25 Mic 7:18 Ac 10:43.

"Regeneration, spiritual circumcision, and sanctification were what men were made partakers of under the first, as under the second administration of the covenant, #De 30:6 Php 3:3.

"Eternal life was made known in the writings of the Old Testament, as well as in those of the New; and was believed, looked for, and expected by the saints of the former, as of the latter dispensation, #Joh 5:39 Heb 11:10,16 Job 19:26,27.

"In a word, they and we eat the same spiritual meat, and drink the same spiritual drink, for they drank of that Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ, #1Co 10:3,4."


His By Grace--"John Gill: A Body of Doctrinal & Practical Divinity"-Doctrinal Book 4, Chapter 1

"1. First, The agreement there is between them.

"1a. They agree in the efficient cause, God: the covenant of grace, in its original constitution in eternity, is of God, and therefore it is called his covenant, being made by him; "I have made a covenant--my covenant I will not break", #Ps 89:3,34 and whenever any exhibition or manifestation of this covenant was made to any of the patriarchs, as to Abraham, David, &c. it is ascribed to God, "I will make my covenant--he hath made with me an everlasting covenant", #Ge 17:2 2Sa 23:5 so the new covenant, or new administration of it, runs in this form, "I will make a new covenant", &c. #Heb 8:8.

"1b. In the moving cause, the sovereign mercy, and free grace of God, which moved God to make the covenant of grace at first, #Ps 89:2,3. And every exhibition of it under the former dispensation, is a rich display of it, and therefore it is called, the "mercy promised to the fathers" in his "holy covenant", #Lu 1:72 and which has so largely appeared in the coming of Christ, which is ascribed to "the tender mercy of our God", that "grace" and "truth", in the great abundance of them, are said to come by him; by which names the covenant of grace, under the gospel dispensation, is called, in distinction from that under the Mosaic one, #Lu 1:78 Joh 1:17.

"1c. In the Mediator, who is Christ; there is but one Mediator of the covenant of grace, let it be considered under what dispensation it will; even Christ, who under the former dispensation was revealed as the seed of the woman that should bruise the serpent's head, and make atonement by his sufferings and death, signified by the expiatory sacrifices, under the law; the Shiloh, the peaceable One, and the Peace Maker, the living Redeemer of Job, and of all believers under the Old Testament. Moses, indeed, was a Mediator, but he was only a typical one. There is but "one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus"; there never was any other, and he is the "Mediator of the new covenant", #1Ti 2:5 Heb 12:24.


"1d. In the subjects of these covenants, or administrations of the covenants of grace, the elect of God, to whom the blessings of it are applied. It was with the chosen people of God in Christ, the covenant of grace was originally made; and according to the election of grace are the spiritual blessings of it dispensed to the children of men, #Ps 89:3 Eph 1:3,4 so they were under the former dispensation, from the beginning of the world, to the seed of the woman, in distinction from the seed of the serpent; to the remnant according to the election of grace among the Jews, the children of the promise that were counted for the seed; and election, or elect men, obtain the blessings of the covenant in all ages, and under the present dispensation, more abundantly, and in greater numbers.


"1e. In the blessings of it; they are the same under both administrations.

"Salvation and redemption by Christ is the great blessing held forth and enjoyed under the one as under the other, #2Sa 23:5 Heb 9:15.

"Justification by the righteousness of Christ, which the Old Testament church had knowledge of, and faith in, as well as the new, #Isa 45:24,25 Ro 3:21-23.

"Forgiveness of sin through faith in Christ, all the prophets bore witness to; and the saints of old, as now, had as comfortable an application of it, #Ps 32:1,5 Isa 43:25 Mic 7:18 Ac 10:43.

"Regeneration, spiritual circumcision, and sanctification, were what men were made partakers of under the first, as under the second administration of the covenant, #De 30:6 Php 3:3.

"Eternal life was made known in the writings of the Old Testament, as well as in those of the New; and was believed, looked for, and expected by the saints of the former, as of the latter dispensation, #Joh 5:39 Heb 11:10,16 Job 19:26,27.

"In a word, they and we eat the same spiritual meat, and drink the same spiritual drink, for they drank of that Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ, #1Co 10:3,4."

 

Thanks for that Alan, I plum forgot that one and if those are not born again children of God, show me who are?... Brother Glen

1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Btw... Growing up I remember my Dad's complete collection of John Gill's Exposition Of The Bible!... Those suckers were heavy... I'm sure glad they're online

 

The Holy Spirit was not yet indwelling and sealing the lost though until Pentacost, as the Messiah had to first die and be raised up again for that new working of Hid under the new Covenant!

 

That is a handful of words wrapped into a philosophy, without scripture, however, the proper interpretation of those verses they allude to don't allow for these words to be placed together like this.

Another Comforter was Sent on The Day of Pentecost to Indwell The Lord's Building Material that He Had Used to Divinely Found and Originate the assembling Institution He Called, "My church".

The Building Material He Used were Spirit Indwelt, Born Again, Adopted children of God, who had also been water baptized, by The Authority of God, from a man God Sent to baptize.

They were a building fitly framed together.

Jesus Called Out His Called Out Assembly and Promised them Another Comforter.

The Shikina Glory Sent on The Day of Pentecost Publically Inauguralated The Lord's assembled children there that Day, as a Fulfillment of Daniel chapter 9, i.e., to 'Anoint The Most Holy'.

The Holy Spirit not yet Sent has no reference to individual Born Again souls, for which there is abundant Teaching.

The Called Out Assembly, in the Bible, whether civil or religious, is a Called Out Assembly, in every case without exception*.

No Holy Spirit, no Sealing, and 'a new working' are not Taught any more than a Non-Called Out Non-Assembled Non-Entity.

The proper Interpretation dispels these philosophies, for the sake of honestly when The Bible is read for what it Says, as opposed to 'building' error upon error, to 'create' something not there, otherwise.

*I should probably outline this somewhere because there is only one kind of Called-Out Assembly that Jesus Referrs to, as His Divinely Instituted 'church' assemblies with Divive Origin and Superintendence by The Glory of The Lord.

 

No, that the world was not aware of it. We still do not see the Holy Spirit, do we? That verse has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit sealing all humanity from conception. The job of Jesus' disciples was to open the eyes of all humans so they could see that they have been sealed since conception. Jesus disciples did not see the Holy Spirit either, because they were of and in the world as well, before Jesus called them out.

It was not that the world could never receive. It was that they, being in darkness, need their eyes to be open to the truth of the Holy Spirit. I do think that once one has their eyes open by the Holy Spirit, one of the world can then gladly receive. Or they can readily reject, and after awhile of rejection, return to the point of not able to receive the power of the Holy Spirit.

The reformed theology that most can never receive is the deception of Satan and twisting the Words of Jesus to say what it does not. In relationship to A follower of Jesus and what they can do, a relationship with the world leads to blindness and the reality of not being able to receive. So yes, in the power of the world and sinful flesh one cannot receive. Once they hear the truth and once their eyes are opened, they can.

Pentecost was an unique event. It was by sight. However the majority of the world can realize the Holy Spirit already working, and now have the power to proclaim all the truth of God’s redemption in their life.

 

What verse supposes an idea of 'the Holy Spirit sealing all humanity from conception'?

Do you know when that thought was invented?

2020?

 

The called out group, the faithful remnant throughout history of OT to God was not the Church!

 

The fiction that OT saints were born anew is posted and reposted every year of so. Jesus had not died, therefore the "washing of regeneration" in Christ was not available to the OT Saints. That is why they had to "wait" to be made perfect. That is why they could not be indwelt. Only a born anew person can be indwelt. Everyone follows Christ in the regeneration, no one was regenerated before Christ died. He is the first born. I can go on and on but what is the use? This myth has OT Saints being placed in Christ, reborn, and sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit as a pledge for our bodily redemption, without any support from scripture.

John 14:16-17 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him or knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.

 

The general difference in the Old and New Testaments is not the method of Salvation, which is that "Jesus is The Savior", i.e., "Salvation is of The Lord", but that there are different Administrations of The One Covenant of Grace and, then, different methods of service.

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,"...
In different times and under various economies, in The Old Testament Jews economy Had them worship him in The Temple.

In The New Testament, Jesus Founded what He Called, "My church", and those who serve The Triune Godhead, Properly, Organizationally, Practically, Doctrinally,....AND FAITHFULLY, serve, and worship God, through one of His Called-Out Assemblies.

They have been Scripturally baptized, by The Authority of God.

God Accepts their worship.

God Accepted The Jew's worship, in The Temple, as OLD TESTAMENT FAITHFUL Adhered to His Commands.

Later, when the Jews apostatized, The Glory of The Lord Has Departed", was Written over the doorway.

The Jews apostatized from The Commands of God and God's Acceptance of their worship, by coming up with a bunch of carnal, "it doesn't matter"s, and many more, "who cares".

...

From your words, I believe there is a deviation in there from "Called-Out Assembly" vs. "Called Out Group".

Yes, Religious associates may be widely spattered and, at times, still be called, "a group".

Not so much, with,"Assembly", which is the word God used, for an indication of the emphasis in the expression of "His church", as being those that Gather, & Congregate, & Assemble.

...

The Teaching of what God refers to, as "a church", every time in The Bible, is not where you start for an understanding of what a church is.

Not even the definition of the greek.

It is "Authority in Baptism", from a man whose name was, "John".

"Authority in Baptism" determines what a church is, Biblically Speaking, AND "A BAPTIST".

 

Well what is Faith for then? The emphasis of building up the body of Christ was just as real before God created the world as it was after Adam disobeyed.

 

There is a verse in the Bible that states 2020? I am to accept your word over the Word of God?

God allowed death to reign from Adam until now, exactly the same way all are sealed with the Holy Spirit. It is not a choice. It is not genetic. It is God not willing that any should Perish. It is not a forced condition nor a binding one. Just like sin is not a forced condition nor a binding one. There is free will, because it was written into God's plan of Atonement. God both allowed sin, and prevented Satan from destroying each one of us.

If there was no power at all working in us from God's perspective we would always choose sin and death. If we did not have sinful flesh we would only serve God without question like the Angels. God planned all this. Give one good reason that every human is not sealed at conception.

 

Forever includes the start of creation. This world has an end, but all time since Adam is part of forever. Why be stingy and selfish in your own private interpretation?

 

Were the disciples of Jesus called and chosen only after Jesus died on the Cross?

 

Why must you redefine words so they do not mean what was intended. Forever starts when we are indwelt and never ends. Time travel theology is for the scripture nullification folks.

 

Your interpretation of forever is not even biblical. Show me a verse that says sealed forever. Ephesians 4:30
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."
This does not say forever; it says unto. The definition would be always. For all the time you live on earth. If you do not accept the Atonement; after you die, you will no longer be sealed. The day of redemption is when you are placed under the alter in Christ, in Paradise. You are free from the body of flesh and sin. It does not matter when you profess on earth. The point is you were always sealed. If you reject being sealed, you will die in your sins and the works of the flesh.

If you interpret Ephesians 4:30 to say redemption is your profession of faith on earth, then the verse means after your profession you are not sealed? Even in chapter 1, most get the timing wrong. We are not sealed because we believe. We believe because we are sealed. Being sealed does prevent Satan from corrupting our thoughts and attitudes against God. We have to get past our own desires and wants of the flesh. That is bad enough. The education system of western thought already teaches us in our minds all of Satan's deceptive works and plans. But greater is He that is working in us. That which seals us against Satan's power. That is what we can believe in and trust. The Holy Spirit uses God’s Word that others point out to us in Word and in deed. We can trust and have faith in those Truths, while the Holy Spirit is working on the inside.

Being always sealed, means the Holy Spirit is always working. Unless we grieve and quench this internal work that is going on. If we do suppress this seal on us, we can get to the place where we can no longer be redeemed. It is not because of God's lack of power or ability. It is because we have given in totally to the flesh, and the truth can no longer be found. We have created a demon with our spirit in God's presence. This demon has to flee from heaven and roam the earth looking for human souls to also bring about the creation of more demons. To deny that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit from conception is to deny the very plan and will of God.

And yes, humans were sealed since day 6 when they were created by God. All the OT saints are in Christ. While they looked forward and we look back; all humanity saw the same act on the Cross. It was the Atonement that God said happened before creation.

So the OT saints looked backwards and forwards. They accepted what God did from two perspectives, and that is the only difference between them and us. We also look forward to our time of redemption as well. It will be our glorified bodies. They looked for both the cross and their glorified bodies. We have their history written down, so we can learn from it and not do the same things they did. But yet we still do the same sins ourselves.

 

Your view is not biblical, logical or rational. We start out mortal and those saved become immortal. For you to deny this is a waste.