Featured God is Completely Sovereign or in Control of EVERYTHING that happens. PT 2

Tim, you are not a martyr. Stick with the points I made around God's word.

 

Never said I was a martyr. Just repeating what others have pointed out about my life. And actual life experience. Never did make it to a place where God wanted me, where humans actually kill those sent by God. At least not yet......

Is your statement your opinion or prophetic? Do I have a martyr complex? I do not know. I was always willing to die for God, read a lot about the early church and missionaries around the world at a young age. Reading Revelation and only seemingly seeing the mention of martyrs and those beheaded as being in heaven makes one wonder sometimes. Is being a martyr a factor in God's overall plan?

 

Tim, I'm sorry for your troubles. Sounds like you could use a good biblically solid counselor. It seems you may not know any solid Christian mentor.
My argument with you is your misuse of God's word to create something that God has not said. When I was younger, I was taught things that were not biblical. The way I found out was by reading my Bible and just observing what it said. I tried to not let the bias of years of being "taught" cause me to see what wasn't there. I just wrote down my observations based on what I saw, not what I wanted to see. What I saw was all the times I read about God choosing. I was surprised. I had been taught that I had to choose God, but here I kept reading about God choosing. The process was years in the making. I fought against wiser and more biblically mature leaders as I searched. But, ultimately God kept working on my pride.
My advise. Observe what God is actually saying in passages and accept it, even if it goes against what you have learned.
And, go find a Godward counselor.

 

That is what everyone is telling me. God’s job for my life is not conventional, and only God knows what is going on. Me talking to a counselor is like nothing I have ever heard about how counseling should work. It does not work out like a textbook session at all. Test show I deny being in the same category as other normal people. All I can rely on, is that I am fearfully and wonderfully made just for God's purpose, whatever that will entail.

I hate when my post sounds like I have troubles. I hate sounding proud. I hate sounding like a know it all. It does not make me feel anything except disgust. Not sure why I admit these except counseling does not help. Meds do not help. I think the only thing that helps is that strong faithful godly men are praying for me.

 

Do you believe this? Even now, you believe that Gods himself is causing me to type to type this as well as giving me the motivation to type this. If I missspel a word, God made it happen. How does your belief allow God to do as he pleases? For you, God is only God if he does every action and causes every thought. Is this a God who does whatever he pleases?.

I believe God does whatever he pleases.

Do you?

 

Psalms 115:3. 'But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.'

You seem to have a strange definition of "does whatever He pleases."
Clearly, if God wanted or needed you to misspell a word, then God is fully capable of arranging circumstances and turning your heart like a stream to misspell that word. It is silly to suggest that God is omnipotent ... except over your spelling which is beyond his control. On the other hand, if you misspelled a word, then God clearly must have allowed you to misspell that word. The same omnipotence that means God could have made you misspell a word, also means that God had the power to prevent you from misspelling a word. If you do 'misspell a word', then it is inescapable that God either CAUSED it or ALLOWED it. In either case, God has "done whatever He pleases." In neither case have you thwarted the will of God.

 

Not to argue, but just to clarify: You quoted Hosea 8:1-7 and he was asking you if you understood what was happening, in the Historical Context, at the time those passages were being written. For the record, I don't (probably Israel falling away from God since they were always getting in trouble for that). However your response was not an answer to the question that was actually asked of you.

 

Some humans use God....

Spell check is my frenemy. Does God control spell check, or does God Allow Satan to "misuse" the technology? Both would be a Sovereign ability, to make free choices.

 

My response had nothing to do with his response to me. His post was not on topic. His post was not about the topic. Unless the poster who posted the post, I was responding to, comes forth with a reply, the topic is pretty much finished.

 

"Seek the LORD, and His Strength: seek His Face evermore." Psalm 105:4

 

PSALM 104:5 "Who Laid the Foundations of the earth, that it should Not be Removed for ever."

God Laid the Foundation, however, there is now a condition called, "sin".

Within this condition of "sin" in the World, there is a curse.

Buttered bread does not always land face up when it is dropped.

The Parable of the Weeds Explained
(Zephaniah 1:1-6)

Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

Which one is it? Allow or control? I wasn't speaking to you. I was talking to Martin who stated that God does not allow but instead controls.

If your argument is God allows or controls all things, I won't argue with that. The title of the thread is not God allows or controls all things, it is God controls all things. You and Austin have changed your position to be closer to mine. I'll take that as a win and move on.

 

According to Job, God does both. Satan made his "free choices" and Job made his "free choices" and each of Job's friends made their "free choices" ... and throughout it all, everything happened EXACTLY as God willed it to happen when GOD set things in motion.

Jonah is another good example of the "will of man" directly confronting the "will of God".
Was Nineveh warned by Jonah like God wanted, or not?

 

It is not allow OR control, God allows AND controls. That is what makes Him God and not like us.

This is a forum. If you intended to have a private conversation with an individual without anyone else jumping into the discussion, you should have chosen a medium like e-mail rather than a public Forum.

If you are suggesting that God ALLOWS things that are beyond His CONTROL, then I am definitely not saying that. However I do believe that God allows things that He is not the cause of, yet God is still fully in control of. A perfect example is when Joseph's brothers wanted to kill him and sold him into slavery. God did not place the evil in their heart, nor did God compel them to commit evil. Yet God was aware of their desires and God used their actions to further God's greater plan. God ALLOWED without being the CAUSE, but God was never out of CONTROL.

I am not sure that I have changed any position of mine, but if we agree on the Sovereignty of God then that is, indeed, a win for all of us.

God bless.

 

Nineveh was warned both ways. Jonah did not do it in God's will. God still had God’s will done. No it was not done as God wanted. Now you can say God wanted Jonah not to go, but why ask Jonah just to prove people are forced not to do God’s will? That is why there is free will in doing a command given by God. God will accomplish your task whether you are willing or not. You have free will to do it either way. God's free will choice could have included letting Jonah make his get away, and giving his job to someone else.

The point of free will is still changing from one will to the other. In Jonah's case did Jonah do it against Jonah's own will any way? His will at the end was still: not doing the task. He was still mad at God, and still disobeying God in his mind. God pointed out that, such an attitude, was a futile effort.

God’s sovereignty is still God always being in control, but God let's His own creation "paint on the canvas."

 

You are correct. Your response had nothing to do with my question. Also your quote of Hosea had nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
This thread has exposed the weakness of your position. You may keep your position, despite its weakness, or you may amend your position as others have suggested.

 

The example of Joseph’s brothers selling him into slavery indicates that God not only “lets” His creation paint on the canvas, but God’s Sovereign plan incorporates the painting of His creation into God’s predestined design.

 

I don't believe anything is beyond his ability to control if he wants to.

It could be that I misunderstood what you were stating in the title of the thread. The only philosophy I feel like opposing at the moment is the philosophy of John Calvin in his work "No Mere Permission". Martin had just said he supported this. John Calvin believed every action was done by God including all of our thought. For John Calvin, God did not allow a single thing, God does every little thing. (John Calvin felt so strongly about this that he said that those who used "allow" were blaspheming the Holy Spirit.) You can read John Calvin's pamphlet if you want more details. You might want to watch a primer on Classical Theology to better understand John Calvin.

 

One needs to differentiate between “John Calvin” and Calvinism (which is really Reformed Theology with a backhanded label applied by the Lutheran opponents of another century that has come to represent the 19th Century acronym TULIP in modern parlance). Martin Luther said “all Jews are pigs and should be burned alive in their synagogues”, but nobody argues that is the official position of all Lutherans (or any Lutheran Christians).

(as an side, I did not create the title or write the OP).

In the example of Joseph’s brothers attempting to kill him, but selling him into slavery instead, was that “under God’s complete control” or did God “not want to control the situation”? Remember that God had already told Joseph in a dream that his family WOULD bow down before him, so God knew what would and must happen to ultimately bring about a Passover as a prophetic typology of the future Christ.

For me, I see a parallel to the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart in the story. God lifting His restraining hand and allowing evil to follow its natural desires only as far as God will permit (like Satan in Job). Thus God does not CAUSE the evil, but God CONTROLS every action by determining “this far and no further” to every evil desire. I see a parallel in Romans 1 where it describes God’s progressive lifting of restraint on the reprobate.

So I may disagree with John Calvin on a God that controls every thought if John believed that God is the author of every thought, but I may agree with John if he meant that God restrains evil thoughts and lifts that restraint to allow men to follow their fallen desires to God’s desired ends. [The ‘devil’ is in the details. ]

 

The Lord.

God presides over everything, so He allowed it.
Cain was responsible for murdering Abel, since God cannot and does not tempt men to sin ( James 1:13-15 ).

Cain sinned and was fully responsible for it, so I agree with you here.

Respectfully, we're discussing what Scripture states...
Is the Lord our King, and does He do things according to His will in the armies of Heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth ( Daniel 4:35 ) or doesn't He?

I don't see John Calvin having anything to do with what is written in Daniel 4:35 and many other places, that clearly tell us that God can and does do things according to His will;
Apart from the will and desires of us as mere men.

So, according to the word of God, He is Who He says He is:

Psalms 115:3
Psalms 135:6
Isaiah 14:27
Isaiah 40:17.
Isaiah 43:13.
Isaiah 45:9.
Daniel 6:27.

...and many others.


All-powerful, all-knowing and all-seeing and whose Spirit is everywhere.
He is in control and rules over everything, no matter how chaotic it looks to us as men...
Even Satan and his demons are on a short leash.

His purposes will be done, MB, whether or not we as men like it.
We aren't His counselors.

Therefore, He is not Who we as men might want Him to be, He is as His word describes Him as being.