Postincarnate Christ

[asterisktom]

You are saying you will agree Jesus took on humanity forever but only if you can deny the physical aspect of humanity. The resurrected body of Jesus, and ours, are changed or transformed. They are glorified physical bodies, but they are physical.

Paul calls resurrected bodies “spiritual bodies”. If I remember correctly, the word for “body” is “sarx” which means “flesh”. So Paul is combining spiritual and physical in his explanation; affirming both and denying neither in the reality of the resurrection.

Again, this is an old heresy. I think Gnosticism began in the first century denied the humanity of Jesus. It has been rejected for nearly 2000 years.

peace to you

Oh come on. Answer my question. And then we can address my supposed age-old heresy.

Did Moses or David cease to be human when they died? Yes or no.

You are the one that demanded an answer to your shibboleth.

 

[atpollard]

Did Moses or David cease to be human when they died? Yes or no.

No.

[Matthew 17:1-4 NASB] 1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah."

Did Peter see Moses' body after he died? Yes or No.

 

[Rob_BW]

Hello, Rob. Could you please pinpoint the verse or verses you have in mind in Revelation?

It is time for bed here. I will get back to this tomorrow.

Revelation 1:14-16

 

[tyndale1946]

Revelation 1:14-16

I very rarely get into theses discussion because I too believe in a resurrected body and the same body, that went into the grave I've heard many preachers say in over my 50 years in the church... IS COMING OUT!... But we won't really know until that day what it be until it happens... But we do know this!... Brother Glen

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

 

[canadyjd]

Oh come on. Answer my question. And then we can address my supposed age-old heresy.

Did Moses or David cease to be human when they died? Yes or no.

You are the one that demanded an answer to your shibboleth.

I don’t know what “shibboleth” means, but I’ll assume it’s some kind of insult since you’ve said twice.

The human spirits of Moses and David are now in heaven. So, yes, they are still human.

Moses and David will both have their physical bodies resurrected, joined with their human spirits and transformed to a glorified physical bodies.

Since I answered directly, as you requested, I suppose you will address the first century heresy of denying the physical resurrection (and body) of Jesus.

peace to you

 

[Rob_BW]

I don’t know what “shibboleth” means, but I’ll assume it’s some kind of insult since you’ve said twice.

The human spirits of Moses and David are now in heaven. So, yes, they are still human.

Moses and David will both have their physical bodies resurrected, joined with their human spirits and transformed to a glorified physical bodies.

Since I answered directly, as you requested, I suppose you will address the first century heresy of denying the physical resurrection (and body) of Jesus.

peace to you

It's a useful word to know.

Judges 12:5-6

 

[atpollard]

I don’t know what “shibboleth” means, but I’ll assume it’s some kind of insult since you’ve said twice.

Actually, it means "a test" in that context ... usually a test if someone is genuine ... and comes from a really neat story (far more interesting than THIS TOPIC):

[Judges 12:1-6 NASB]
1 Then the men of Ephraim were summoned, and they crossed to Zaphon and said to Jephthah, "Why did you cross over to fight against the sons of Ammon without calling us to go with you? We will burn your house down on you." 2 Jephthah said to them, "I and my people were at great strife with the sons of Ammon; when I called you, you did not deliver me from their hand. 3 "When I saw that you would not deliver [me,] I took my life in my hands and crossed over against the sons of Ammon, and the LORD gave them into my hand. Why then have you come up to me this day to fight against me?" 4 Then Jephthah gathered all the men of Gilead and fought Ephraim; and the men of Gilead defeated Ephraim, because they said, "You are fugitives of Ephraim, O Gileadites, in the midst of Ephraim [and] in the midst of Manasseh." 5 The Gileadites captured the fords of the Jordan opposite Ephraim. And it happened when [any of] the fugitives of Ephraim said, "Let me cross over," the men of Gilead would say to him, "Are you an Ephraimite?" If he said, "No," 6 then they would say to him, "Say now, 'Shibboleth.'" But he said, "Sibboleth," for he could not pronounce it correctly. Then they seized him and slew him at the fords of the Jordan. Thus there fell at that time 42,000 of Ephraim.

 

[tyndale1946]

You brethren have seem to overlooked 1 Corinthians 15 that applies to our resurrection and as I have heard many preachers say over the years our bodies shall be changed not exchanged... And I don't understand it, any more than you do... Brother Glen

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[agedman]

“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why are you standing here staring into heaven? Jesus has been taken from you into heaven, but someday he will return from heaven in the same way you saw him go!” (Acts)

2Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 3And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. (1 John)

2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. (1 John)

7For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we jhave worked for, but may win a full reward. 9Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works. (2 John)




​

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

You brethren have seem to overlooked 1 Corinthians 15 that applies to our resurrection and as I have heard many preachers say over the years our bodies shall be changed not exchanged... And I don't understand it, any more than you do... Brother Glen

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Those verses say “we” will be changed, not “our bodies” will be changed. They then speak of putting on incorruption and immortality. We must know precisely what is meant by “we” before making such conclusions as you offer.

The OP questions what it means to be human, and we know from Genesis that it means far more than being flesh and blood, as there are many animals that are flesh and blood, and they are not human.

The passages mentioned so far suggest that “flesh and blood” as we know them are not specifically required.

However, no passages come to mind that speak of completely separating man from some sort of body, only from this form of our bodies.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

We might also question just what it means to have a bodily form. Does it mean that the body entirely contains the being? Or does it only mean that the body is a way for the being to interact with others and the environs?

And then there is the Son of God. Did Jesus appearing in the flesh mean that his human body fully contained him in every way? That sounds heretical, not to mention impossible.

I see no compelling reason to think that the Son of God should or did shed his human body in the sense of having none after the ascension. In fact, the opposite seems to be the case.

 

[asterisktom]

Jesus' body after His Resurrection was indeed physical. He made it a point to tell the Disciples to touch Him. After which Jesus ascended to heaven. There is no a SINGLE Bible text that says His body changed again, and that somehow His flesh body disappeared in any way. I really cannot understand why you, or anyone else, would spend so much time on such specualtion? The Bible no where warrants such "theology", so why make such a big issue about nothing?

I gave several verses in the OP that strongly imply that Jesus is now no longer in the flesh. No one addressed them. What does "in the days of His flesh" mean to you?

And, yes, it is a big issue.
If we are mistaken on the body of Christ we are mistaken on the nature of His return.
And the time of His return, overlooking that it already happened.
And then - because we are mistakenly waiting for a still-future return of a physical return of Christ and a physical kingdom of God to be issued in - we ignore or greatly downplay the present reality of the Kingdom now.
And doing this, because "this is all going to burn up anyway" we tend to disattach from this world instead of being salt and light like we are supposed to be.

No, there is no single text that says His body changed. There are several texts that, taken together, prove the point. Likewise there is no single text that proves the Trinity.

 

[asterisktom]

No.

[Matthew 17:1-4 NASB] 1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. 2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah."

Did Peter see Moses' body after he died? Yes or No.

Not so fast. 1. If Moses did not cease to be human after he died and 2. he was no longer physical then - or do you argue that he still had flesh? - then 3. Having flesh is not an essential part of being human. And 4. it is thus not necessary that "the one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" has flesh, or is physical.

The answer to your question is yes, though I do not see your point.

 

[asterisktom]

I don’t know what “shibboleth” means, but I’ll assume it’s some kind of insult since you’ve said twice.

The human spirits of Moses and David are now in heaven. So, yes, they are still human.

Moses and David will both have their physical bodies resurrected, joined with their human spirits and transformed to a glorified physical bodies.

Since I answered directly, as you requested, I suppose you will address the first century heresy of denying the physical resurrection (and body) of Jesus.

peace to you

No insult was intended. I just assumed that everyone who posts regularly here has a working knowledge of the Old Testament. Certainly you with over 5000 posts and a member since 2005. But I see others here have mentioned the background of the term so I will leave that.

But, no, you did not answer my question directly. Precision is important here. I assume, though, that you answered yes, that Moses never ceased to be human - even though he, at this point, had no flesh and bones. That shows that being human does not require having flesh and bones. That also shows that Christ, the Son of Man, "the Man Christ Jesus" as Timothy has it, does not necessarily have to have flesh or be physical.

Why should I address that heresy? I believe as you do on that point. Christ shed His physical blood for our sins. He died. He rose again in a physical body. If this were not true we, of all men, would be most miserable and lost.

 

[asterisktom]

“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why are you standing here staring into heaven? Jesus has been taken from you into heaven, but someday he will return from heaven in the same way you saw him go!” (Acts)

2Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. 3And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. (1 John)

2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. (1 John)

7For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we jhave worked for, but may win a full reward. 9Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, 11for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works. (2 John)




​

None of this has anything to do with what I am asserting.

 

[asterisktom]

I see no compelling reason to think that the Son of God should or did shed his human body in the sense of having none after the ascension. In fact, the opposite seems to be the case.

Just to be clear, I am not saying that Christ had no body, just that it was not physical. Physicality is not demanded here just as in the case I mentioned with Moses and David.

 

[asterisktom]

You brethren have seem to overlooked 1 Corinthians 15 that applies to our resurrection and as I have heard many preachers say over the years our bodies shall be changed not exchanged... And I don't understand it, any more than you do... Brother Glen

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This is a key passage that should have been more front and center in this discussion.

 

[asterisktom]

The resurrected body of Jesus, and ours, are changed or transformed. They are glorified physical bodies, but they are physical.

Reference, please.

Paul calls resurrected bodies “spiritual bodies”. If I remember correctly, the word for “body” is “sarx” which means “flesh”. So Paul is combining spiritual and physical in his explanation; affirming both and denying neither in the reality of the resurrection.

You have turned the wonderful 15th chapter of Corinthians into a cafeteria line, choosing only the verses you want. Please do a study of all the uses of the word "body" in this chapter. Also, consider the passage where it says that "as we have borne the image of the earthly we shall also bear the image of the heavenly".

Again, this is an old heresy. I think Gnosticism began in the first century denied the humanity of Jesus. It has been rejected for nearly 2000 years.

Gnosticism is indeed a heresy. But what I am asserting is not Gnosticism.

 

[asterisktom]

Just to be clear, I am not saying that Christ had no body, just that it was not physical. Physicality is not demanded here just as in the case I mentioned with Moses and David.

My wife pointed out where I was not clear in what I wrote. In post number 56 it should read

"Just to be clear, I am not saying that Christ had no body, just that after the ascension it was not physical. Physicality is not demanded here just as in the case I mentioned with Moses and David."

 

[canadyjd]

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you