The Double Election of Scripture

[Yeshua1]

Calvinists employ the tactic of filling pages and pages with person attacks, to drive up the pages to bring about thread closure, in order to hide truth. They have been allowed to use this ploy for years and years. Imagine how many pages could be deleted if all the Calvinist smokescreed posts were deleted?

Did I "make up" corporate election, individual election, faith in Christ, and on and on. Did I make up Romans 9:16 which teaches the lost seek to be saved? Nope. Did I make up the call of the gospel? Nope. Did I even make up the view that Calvinism's TULI are false doctrines? Nope. Did I make up Matthew 23:13? Nope. Did I make up Mark 1:15? Nope 1 Timothy 2:4-6? Nope

On and on Calvinists deflect because their doctrines are unbiblical, unstudied, and absurd.

TULI:
T refuted by Romans 9:16 - teaching some lost seek salvation from God
U refuted by 2 Thessalonians 2:13 - teaching we are chosen for salvation on the basis of our faith in the truth
L refuted by 1 Timothy 2:4-6 - teaching Christ died for all mankind.
I refuted by Matthew 23:13 - teaching those in the process of entering the kingdom are not being irresistibly compelled.

The biblical doctrine of Election can be presented using the acronym ELECT.

1. Elections - God chose His Redeemer individually (Christ) and all those Christ would redeem corporately before the foundation of the world, the elections before time; and then subsequently chooses believers individually during their lifetime based on crediting their wholehearted faith in Christ, the second election.

2. Love overcomes depravity - Mankind is depraved from conception, separated from God by being in a state of sin with a corrupt flesh and a corrupt human spirit. But God, who understands the heart, accepts the faith, as depraved as it may be, of those who love and trust in His Son.

3. Effective reconciliation - Christ’s propitiation is sufficient to save all men, but the available reconciliation is only received, when God credits our faith as righteousness and spiritually baptizes us into Christ, making us spiritually alive together with Christ.

4. Cultivated call - Turning to God and trusting in Christ occur when receptive people hear the gospel and believe. Thus faith in Christ is spread by an external call to those who receive the gospel wholeheartedly.

5. Trust in Faith - Only by persevering in faith can a believer be sure of salvation, because God protects the faith of His chosen ones.

You totally misunderstand what election, and all of the points of grace, rightly are saying!

 

[agedman]

You totally misunderstand what election, and all of the points of grace, rightly are saying!

Is it a mater of lack of understanding, or desire to seek one’s own way?

“I did it my way.”

 

[atpollard]

Did I make up Romans 9:16 which teaches the lost seek to be saved?

You sort of did make it up since that verse does not teach what you claim it does.
See ...

• [Romans 9:16]
  
• [NASB] 16 So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
• [KJV] 16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
• [NIV] 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
• [NLT] 16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
• [ESV] 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

All of these are examples of humans wanting a god but not wanting GOD ALMIGHTY.

[Mat 7:22-23 ESV] 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

[Rom 1:18-23 ESV] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

[Rom 2:17-24 ESV] 17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; 19 and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth-- 21 you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. 24 For, as it is written, "The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

[Act 8:17-23 NET] 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on the Samaritans, and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 Now Simon, when he saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, offered them money, 19 saying, "Give me this power too, so that everyone I place my hands on may receive the Holy Spirit." 20 But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could acquire God's gift with money! 21 You have no share or part in this matter because your heart is not right before God! 22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that he may perhaps forgive you for the intent of your heart. 23 For I see that you are bitterly envious and in bondage to sin."

 

[Yeshua1]

You sort of did make it up since that verse does not teach what you claim it does.
See ...

• [Romans 9:16]
  
• [NASB] 16 So then it [does] not [depend] on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
• [KJV] 16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
• [NIV] 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
• [NLT] 16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
• [ESV] 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

All of these are examples of humans wanting a god but not wanting GOD ALMIGHTY.

[Mat 7:22-23 ESV] 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

[Rom 1:18-23 ESV] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

[Rom 2:17-24 ESV] 17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; 19 and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth-- 21 you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. 24 For, as it is written, "The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

[Act 8:17-23 NET] 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on the Samaritans, and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 Now Simon, when he saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, offered them money, 19 saying, "Give me this power too, so that everyone I place my hands on may receive the Holy Spirit." 20 But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could acquire God's gift with money! 21 You have no share or part in this matter because your heart is not right before God! 22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that he may perhaps forgive you for the intent of your heart. 23 For I see that you are bitterly envious and in bondage to sin."

Salvation from start to finish is of the lord....

 

[atpollard]

Salvation from start to finish is of the lord....

The problem with general statements like that is that both R.C. Sproul and John Wesley would give you an "AMEN!" and view salvation completely different. There aren't a lot of "Horray, I saved myself!" Christians in the universe.

Since you and I are monergists with "Particular Baptist" leanings, let's deal with OUR difficulties.

• Why are the elect BORN sinners? If God chose before we were born and OUR faith plays no part, then why the delay?
• Why does scripture keep using the terms "the world" and "all men" so often? Sure we can explain the individual verses, but why did God place SO MANY verses that need to be explained in the Bible?
• Why does the human experience of salvation make it feel like we chose God at the start of the process? Shouldn't the empirical evidence be clearer for everyone rather than just a few. There seem to be a lot more "Andrews" than "Pauls" when it comes to the call of God.

 

[AustinC]

I expected "taint so" posts, and I did not expect anyone to actually consider Biblical Election as found in scripture. Here is the biblical doctrine of Election, presented using the acronym ELECT.

1. Elections - God chose His Redeemer individually (Christ) and all those Christ would redeem corporately before the foundation of the world, the elections before time; and then subsequently chooses believers individually during their lifetime based on crediting their wholehearted faith in Christ, the second election.

2. Love overcomes depravity - Mankind is depraved from conception, separated from God by being in a state of sin with a corrupt flesh and a corrupt human spirit. But God, who understands the heart, accepts the faith, as depraved as it may be, of those who love and trust in His Son.

3. Effective reconciliation - Christ’s propitiation is sufficient to save all men, but the available reconciliation is only received, when God credits our faith as righteousness and spiritually baptizes us into Christ, making us spiritually alive together with Christ.

4. Cultivated call - Turning to God and trusting in Christ occur when receptive people hear the gospel and believe. Thus faith in Christ is spread by an external call to those who receive the gospel wholeheartedly.

5. Trust in Faith - Only by persevering in faith can a believer be sure of salvation, because God protects the faith of His chosen ones.

Did you create this yourself or are you copying someone else?

 

[AustinC]

On and on folks, Calvinists ignore the rebuttals and change the subject, usually by charging their opponent with malfeasance.
Pay no attention to Calvinists who make up false charge after false charge after false charge.

Note I referenced 1 Peter 2:1 and the guy heading for destruction, yet Y1 has the unmitigated gall, the unabashed temerity to charge me with universalism. Folks, Calvinists employ falsehoods to push false doctrine.

You refused to answer his question. Why is that?

 

[AustinC]

You're like a radio that cannot transmit the signal resulting in static.
MB

You don't have ears to hear.

 

[agedman]

The problem with general statements like that is that both R.C. Sproul and John Wesley would give you an "AMEN!" and view salvation completely different. There aren't a lot of "Horray, I saved myself!" Christians in the universe.

Since you and I are monergists with "Particular Baptist" leanings, let's deal with OUR difficulties.

• Why are the elect BORN sinners? If God chose before we were born and OUR faith plays no part, then why the delay?
• Why does scripture keep using the terms "the world" and "all men" so often? Sure we can explain the individual verses, but why did God place SO MANY verses that need to be explained in the Bible?
• Why does the human experience of salvation make it feel like we chose God at the start of the process? Shouldn't the empirical evidence be clearer for everyone rather than just a few. There seem to be a lot more "Andrews" than "Pauls" when it comes to the call of God.

In reverse order:

One must remember, life experiences are not for God’s education, but are our own to build and destroy.

God repeatedly presents from multiple perspectives that there is no escape from the truth.

We are born sinners, because we are born in the flesh and blood and that neither inherit the kingdom of heaven.

 

[atpollard]

People chosen individually before creation would have always been a "chosen people" yet believers were once "not a people." Thus proves Ephesians 1:4 is corporate and not individual!!!

Before you are born, you are a fetus.
Before conception, the Bible calls you "seed".
When God spoke to Eve, was Abram "a People"?

God CHOSE the future descendants of Abram to become His people before Isaac was born and referenced their captivity in Egypt and the Passover and destruction of Egypt. Paul tells us that Jesus is the vine that fulfills that promise and God chose the branches to remain, the branches to be removed and the branches to be grafted in.

Why is it inconceivable that an Omniscient God could have chosen all of the branches individually?

 

[MB]

You don't have ears to hear.

Says a Hypocrite
MB

 

[atpollard]

God repeatedly presents from multiple perspectives that there is no escape from the truth.

... a bit of a non-answer, there.

We are born sinners, because we are born in the flesh and blood and that neither inherit the kingdom of heaven.

You have missed the mark on this, so let's try again.

1. Everyone is born a sinner.
2. God saves without any contribution from us.
3. What is God waiting for? Why are all ELECT not saved at 5 years old when they can first understand? Why are they not saved at 7 days old?

The "different timing" suggests something external impacts the WHEN of salvation, but hard core Monergism allows for NO EXTERNAL FACTORS. God and God alone chooses IF, WHEN and HOW.

 

[Yeshua1]

Did you create this yourself or are you copying someone else?

Will be included in his forthcoming Systematic theology!

 

[Yeshua1]

The problem with general statements like that is that both R.C. Sproul and John Wesley would give you an "AMEN!" and view salvation completely different. There aren't a lot of "Horray, I saved myself!" Christians in the universe.

Since you and I are monergists with "Particular Baptist" leanings, let's deal with OUR difficulties.

• Why are the elect BORN sinners? If God chose before we were born and OUR faith plays no part, then why the delay?
• Why does scripture keep using the terms "the world" and "all men" so often? Sure we can explain the individual verses, but why did God place SO MANY verses that need to be explained in the Bible?
• Why does the human experience of salvation make it feel like we chose God at the start of the process? Shouldn't the empirical evidence be clearer for everyone rather than just a few. There seem to be a lot more "Andrews" than "Pauls" when it comes to the call of God.

Good questions!
We all are born under the effects of the fall of Adam, so all us are were born as sinners, save for Jesus coming via the Virgin Birth to bypass that!

Jesus did die for all sinners in a general sense, as all will experience a resurrection, but eternal life aspect reserved unto His own!

Many feel that they "chose to accept Jesus", due to them either not clearly knowing what scriptures teach on this, are in free will gospel !churches that promote this belief

 

[Yeshua1]

Before you are born, you are a fetus.
Before conception, the Bible calls you "seed".
When God spoke to Eve, was Abram "a People"?

God CHOSE the future descendants of Abram to become His people before Isaac was born and referenced their captivity in Egypt and the Passover and destruction of Egypt. Paul tells us that Jesus is the vine that fulfills that promise and God chose the branches to remain, the branches to be removed and the branches to be grafted in.

Why is it inconceivable that an Omniscient God could have chosen all of the branches individually?

Corporate Elections allows for us to say that we placed ourselves in there, as God provided to highway to heaven express, and we decided to climb on board!

 

[agedman]

... a bit of a non-answer, there.


You have missed the mark on this, so let's try again.

1. Everyone is born a sinner.
2. God saves without any contribution from us.
3. What is God waiting for? Why are all ELECT not saved at 5 years old when they can first understand? Why are they not saved at 7 days old?

The "different timing" suggests something external impacts the WHEN of salvation, but hard core Monergism allows for NO EXTERNAL FACTORS. God and God alone chooses IF, WHEN and HOW.

“Different timing” is not for God to experience, but it is for the human to express.

Humankind are born sinners, because we are born in the first Adam.

Those God selects for His purpose and service also are brought by His timing, through the experiences of He ordaining, that the usefulness might be fulfilled.

Two examples.
Paul was highly educated and extremely motivated. He needed both in service as a missionary church planter/educator.

Jonah needed to spend some time among the weeds for service.

“God never moves without purpose or plan
When trying His servant and molding a man.” (Ron Hamilton)

It is important to remember this principle applies no only to those redeemed, but those not.

Because God makes all that is made, He even makes the evil person for purpose and plan.

 

[AustinC]

Says a Hypocrite
MB

Aren't we all.

 

[AustinC]

... a bit of a non-answer, there.


You have missed the mark on this, so let's try again.

1. Everyone is born a sinner.
2. God saves without any contribution from us.
3. What is God waiting for? Why are all ELECT not saved at 5 years old when they can first understand? Why are they not saved at 7 days old?

The "different timing" suggests something external impacts the WHEN of salvation, but hard core Monergism allows for NO EXTERNAL FACTORS. God and God alone chooses IF, WHEN and HOW.

atpollard, doesn't God answer this when he uses the phrase "in the fullness of time?"
God, orchestrating the mechanism of His will, determines the exact timing of His children's activated faith.
While we like to think that God could or should do X, or Y or Z, we truly have no sight into the mind of God. In fact God tells us that only the Holy Spirit knows the mind of God and the Holy Spirit only reveals as God wills.
There are billions of sub-plots all working simultaneously with some seemingly pulling at odds with others. Yet, we can rest in the knowledge that God is weaving his perfect tapestry, using both bright and dark colors. Can we rest in knowing that God is enough?

 

[atpollard]

Those God selects for His purpose and service also are brought by His timing, through the experiences of He ordaining, that the usefulness might be fulfilled.

 

[atpollard]

atpollard, doesn't God answer this when he uses the phrase "in the fullness of time?"
God, orchestrating the mechanism of His will, determines the exact timing of His children's activated faith.
While we like to think that God could or should do X, or Y or Z, we truly have no sight into the mind of God. In fact God tells us that only the Holy Spirit knows the mind of God and the Holy Spirit only reveals as God wills.
There are billions of sub-plots all working simultaneously with some seemingly pulling at odds with others. Yet, we can rest in the knowledge that God is weaving his perfect tapestry, using both bright and dark colors. Can we rest in knowing that God is enough?

Sort of works.
However my question actually starts to poke at the notion of CAUSATION. Clearly God chooses to use means and circumstances to guide towards salvation. Just as clearly from scripture salvation is "of" and "by" God and His unmerited gift.

Does God NEED to use "something" external to Himself to save?

Logic wants to make me shout out "of course not".
But then there are verses like:

• [Rom 10:8-10 NASB] 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
• [Rom 10:12-15 NASB] 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"

Can you honestly say they paint a picture of salvation that is IDENTICAL to:

• [Eph 2:1-10 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Where is the balance on the pendulum?
In rejecting ALL OF MAN, have we gone further than scripture the other direction in some of our theorizing?
If we do not challenge our own presuppositions and hold them up to scripture, who will?

We certainly can't expect someone that thinks OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW is the key to God's choosing to offer wisdom on these questions.