Featured Irressistible Grace #2

JD731 said: ↑

Since gentiles will be those who are entering in, when they fail to be born any longer, then the family is complete.


ivdavid said
I look at "when the fullness of Gentiles come in" as the completion of an intended plan whereas you see it as the beginning of their failure - wouldn't your interpretation have been better captured with a "when the Gentiles no longer come in, then Israel will be saved"?

This age (from the cross to the rapture of the church = the dispensation of the grace of God as the operative principle of divine dealing with gentiles Eph 3) ends in a great apostasy (falling away), we are told. So, the gentiles fullness is not that many are saved but that the evangelization of the gentiles will be complete because of their unbelief, which will cause a transition in the workings of God whereby and at which time he will keep his covenant promises to Israel, who are the unsaved in these chapters in Romans I have been speaking about. All these scriptures agrees with this. I keep pointing them out. You keep ignoring the context.

2 Thess 2:Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him (the same phraseology that is in Ep 1:10),
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(It is day of Christ as it pertains to the church and day of the lord as it pertains to the world = Same time frame and the time of God's judgment for both, only in different places and for different reasons)

The transition is from the dispensation of the grace of God, Ep 3:10, to the dispensation of the fullness of times, Eph 1:10.

I am answering your question above within the context the scriptures lays out, and not within the context of your presuppositions. The scriptures are given in words in which God thinks. He thinks the word "fullness" means at the end or completion of something. If it can be shown in scriptures somewhere, anywhere, that it means something different, then I am anxious to believe it.

I am convinced that the great "Christian" movements, such as Calvinism and Pentecostalism, which have appeared in the end times is what God has in mind when he speaks of apostasy, or falling away from the truth.

The problem any non Calvinist has with communication with Calvinists is the language barrier. The words in the scriptures do not have the common and accepted meaning of society at large for the Calvinist. I can give you many examples from scripture but I will give you 3 simple ones.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Ungodly means the elect in Calvinism.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

In Calvinism, he once put away some sin by his sacrifice.

1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

In Calvinism God was not propitiated by the sacrifice of Christ for the whole world.
The word whole is a problem for the Calvinist.

In Rom 11, "Israel" means the physical seed of Abraham (V 1-2) but to the Calvinist it means the limited elect.

My conclusion is that there is no chance of believing the same things about Jesus Christ, God, Man, heaven, hell, angels, judgment, day of the Lord, faith, gift of God, world, life, salvation, believing, and on and on because we do not have the same meanings for words. The inclusion of several words that are absent from the scriptures is another giant problem.

My idea about these things, and especially because I have such a different understanding and belief about them than you do is that you should not believe me to be saved. If you do, then it tells me that you believe I am elect in spite of my unbelief and ignorance.

 

The fullness of the gentiles in Rom 11 is a prophecy. Not everything in the chapter is a prophecy and very little of it is about gentiles. Gentiles enter into the picture as a result of the “present” reality that Israel had refused to believe in Jesus Christ and thus fulfill his purpose that he had stated earlier in the chapter.

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

After giving us the great desire of God that Israel would believe and be saved in total in chapter 10, he tells us here in chapter 11 that only a remnant, a very few Israelites believed. Paul gave these few believers a name. He called them, “ the remnant according to the election of grace.” The promise of God to Israel was that as she had been birthed by God in the flesh ( through) Jacob, that she would be born again in the Spirit through Jesus Christ. Believe it or not, Romans 8 is primarily addressed to Israel explaining how he would do this through the Spirit of Christ.
Romans 9 gives us the division of Israel on the grounds of whether they had been individually born of the Spirit. It is determined that just because They had a relationship with God through Abraham, that did not make them children of God. They of course were all, every one physically the children of Abraham by birth, one family, a unit, a single entity of many members, and in this capacity as a single entity, the son of God.

Exodus 4:22-23
22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

In these above verses this Son is born of the flesh. This is Israel in his first birth. To be of any account to God he must be born again and so God begins to teach him about himself so he can believe and trust in him.God illustrates this in the birth types he uses in this chapter 9. What are they.

1) Ishmael and Isaac
2) Esau and Jacob
3) Israel and Judah

Who was born first in these types? Who did God “Elect?” He elects the “second” man born. The first Adam and the last Adam is a type of this truth. Look at this.

1 Corinthians 15:45-49
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The image of Christ, v49. Was that not the stated purpose for Israel in Rom 8? Yes, it was the stated goal.

Romans 8:27-30
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow. (It was Israel whom he knew before this present time whether Calvinists likes it or not), he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Adam was first in his family and we bear his image and Christ is first in his family and his family bears his image.

Well, I am out of time now for this post with a lot more that needs to be said, but one must keep in mind that Paul wrote this 28 years after the ascension of Jesus Christ to heaven and the history that had unfolded from that time had to be explained in light of God.s relationship of 1500 years with his “son” and his covenant promises to them. In spite of the fact that gentiles took their place in this age because of his unbelief, he will save his Son in the world to come, he says in chapter 11.

I will add some more to this answer of your comments later.

 

God knows who he is addressing and if we simply believe his words we would know it too. I have explained ad-nasuem that Paul is addressing those who know the law from Rom 7:1 through Rom 11:12. Here is his words in Rom 7:1 for you to consider;

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law), how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

The context reveals he is speaking about the law of Moses that gentiles have never been under. Therefore, we can safely conclude that he is speaking to Jewish Christians. When he gets through speaking to them he then speaks to Gentile Christians. Here;

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

While he is speaking to gentiles in this dialog he reveals a mystery that you or no other Calvinist alive today knows anything about though it be clearly stated.Most of you claim to be a new Israel, or some sort of foolishness, even though the whole argument has been that Israel are the unbelievers in these chapters. You will not believe the words.

If you can read these words following and believe the unbelief of Israel is the fault of a father to his son, then you are in worse shape spiritually than even I thought. God is dealing with Israel as a son in these chapters in Romans. He has provided a means for him to be born again and he has not been born again because he held on to the law and walked after the flesh, except for a few of them.. You are wanting me and those who hear you to believe this is what God wanted.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
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16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (something every Calvinist alive today denies)
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people (how silly to think that God would try to provoke people whom he himself has hardened. God is not on crack), and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not (a prophecy about gentiles and particularly about the Northern 10 tribes that are scattered abroad); I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

Now, watch this:

21 But to Israel (as one man) he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

The image this conjours up in the mind is a father stretching out his arms to his son and asking him to come to him. This is a far different image than you give it as pushing him away. Calvinism teaches the very opposite that the scriptures teach on almost every subject.

Ex 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

The next logical question since Israel would not believe is has God cast away his people. The answer is "no." He will deal with the small number who believe and add the believing gentiles and accomplish his purpose with the two together. This too is a mystery, meaning it is not the subject of OT prophecy, that gentiles wuld be included but that it is a contingency since Israel refused her privilege and calling. Here that mystery is clearly presented.

Ep 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

One should look at the cause in chapter 2. It is building a temple for the Holy Ghost to indwell.

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Here is the mystery revealed:

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

It is not that God had intended the Jews to be a single born again entity because that is a matter of OT prophecy, but that the gentles would be included because of Israel's unbelief.

The principle of God's dealing with men from the beginning has been faith. Read Heb 11 here and you can clearly see it. However, men were justified by faith for 4000 years and during different ages and none of them were born again and none of them were baptised by the Spirit into the body of Christ as saved Jews and gentiles are since the cross.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

This is true of any man any where at any time.

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The fact that God's intention was to bless the families and the nations through the family of Abraham presumes that there will be families and nations that are not of Abraham. This has nothing to do with the church of Jesus Christ. The church of Jesus Christ is a family. It is a "house" and the foundation of this family is of Abraham but it has a gentile character. The blessing of the gentiles in the church is a mystery and was not revealed in the OT. When the church is complete and translated to heaven there will still remain on the earth a real Israel and real families and nations and God will bless all of them through Abraham's seed, Jesus Christ. All through eternity in the new earth there will be an Israel and families and nations.

The nations were formed by families. One can see this all through the scriptures.

Re 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

23 And the city (New Jerusalem) had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.


I know, I know, you don't believe the words mean what they say. It is figurative, right?

Can I explain it better than Paul did in Rom 7-11 and in Ephesians? Gentile families and nations will still be blessed through Abraham after the church of Jesus Christ, which is his body and bride, is completed.

The fact that God gave his Spirit to the world through Jesus Christ is a fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant that says all familes of the earth shall be blessed.. The circumstances did not change that fact, nor did the response of Israel change that fact. What did change is how God ministered his Spirit. God has amended his perfect will for men because of their response all through history and is still able to accomplish what he wills in spite of opposition from men and angels. The Abrahamic covenant has 12 promises to Abraham. Only one is that all the families in the earth will be blessed through his seed. The other 11 promises, such as those which deals with the land and eternity is just as literal as the one you pointed out. This is why you have read in Romans 11 that all Israel will be saved after the fullnes of the gentiles be come in and the church of Jesus Christ is complete. God must keep all his promises, and he will. He says he will. I believe him.

It is much easier to believe the words you read than to kick against them. It is also safer. I sure would not want to have free access to the word of God for all my life and then show up at the judgment and tell God I read where Israel's unbelief was his fault.

 

Thanks ivdavid for the questions but you need to provide the quotes where I have said what you claim I have said and then I will be happy to clarify.

Let me establish something here that will help in future comments. I will deal with the following verses in this post and answer your objections in later posts.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, (Hosea) I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

From BC 722 until this present time in AD 58, when Paul wrote Romans, the northern nation of Israel was dispersed and out of her land. Israel was no longer under the laws of God but was under the laws of the nations where she resided.

James wrote a letter and addressed it to the 12 tribes scattered abroad and Peter wrote a letter to whom he called "strangers" in the area of Turkey. He called these people a "nation" and separated them from gentile peoples. This is just a fact of scriptures. You can make of it what you will but you will have to acknowledge that I am telling you the truth. Here is proof.


1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

They are not a self governing people at this time and they are not all in the same gentile nation, yet he calls them a "holy" nation.

1 Pet 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

What does that mean that they are a chosen generation? Is it just rhetoric or did it actually mean something to those to whom it was addressed?

Going back to Romans now we will note what Paul said in chapter 9. I have read Hosea. When he is mentioning "gentiles" he is mentioning the people who he has called "not my people" who were his people. Who were they? They were 10 northern tribes, a nation of people, Israel, also called "Ephraim." Paul is talking in Rom 9 about Israel and refers to them as gentiles because they were cut off from their covenants due to being cast out of their land. Did that annul their covenants? No! Israel out of their land are as gentiles.

God had chosen Judah as his people and had designated Israel, the nation "not my people."

6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.

7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the Lord their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Compare verse 26 with Hosea 1:10

Ho 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

To be a child of God requires a new birth. To have a new birth requires Jesus Christ dying for sins and rising from the dead. It requires knowledge of that and an invitation from God to believe in him and be saved. Israel (the strangers) got that from the preachers Jesus Christ sent to them after the events of the cross.

So, yes, Judah and Israel is in the text of Rom 9 and the point of the second man is made and God's election is made through them.

Hos 1:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the Lord their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

Hos 1:6 :.....for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.

God is dealing with "types" he has previously prepared to illustrate his truths. Don't miss them in favor of a corrupt religious system. These are meant to confirm sound doctrine and give us the mind of Christ. He is showing in this chapter that God's electing prerogative is to always choose the second man. The man who has a second birth.

 

I have spoken to Calvinists for years and I know what their arguments concerning Israel are generally. There are a few dispensational Calvinists but they are usually of the Baptist persuasion and prefers the name Reformed. Every one else teaches a replacement doctrine. Are you saying I am wrong about that?

Why does God provoke someone to believe whom he has predetermined in eternity past not to save? It makes no sense to me. If saving faith is a "gift" of God, why doesn't he just give them the gift?

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

I cannot wrap my mind around this teaching of Calvinism. Please explain it to me in simple words. Paul seems to say above that there is a possibility of persuasion to his countrymen.

 

How does God not predestine some men to condemnation if he has predestined some to be saved? Are you saying the condemned had a choice to be saved until they "filled up" their measure of sin? How does that work? Are you disagreeing with most Calvinists who insist that God made his choice before the foundation of the world and are you saying rather that it is his choice since the cross of Christ to determine who will be saved based on their response to his longsuffering exhortation?

Did Jesus Christ not take the sin of the whole world on himself and yet God saved him? Was Jesus Christ fitted for destruction? Was he a man? Did he have a physical birth at Bethlehem? Did he have a rebirth at the tomb? The answer is yes to all those questions.

In Jn 3:16 he is the first begotten son of God
In Rom 8:29 and Col 1:18 he is the firstborn from the dead

He has two births. Physical and spiritual.

Psa 2:7 says this:

7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Acts 13:33 says this;

God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Jesus himself said these words about a man;

Jn 3:5 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Calvinism, no matter what stripe, has all their eggs in the election basket. They need to have them in the born again basket. That is what is important to God. God elects all who are born again and that is the only ones who God elects.How is one born again. It is by receiving the Spirit of God. The same Spirit who quickened the body of Jesus Christ at the tomb. How does one receive the Spirit? By faith in the gospel of Christ.

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.