Featured Calvinism Question : How does God work through the Soul?

Convicted of sin because they do not believe, your adding in that this means their salvation, NO, all it means is they are condemned by their sins.
And Christ is talking about the WORLD, as in the unbelieving world, not the church. Not a single one of those verses in that whole saying has to do with salvation, it is all about condemnation of the wicked.
About the WORLD
sin, because they do not believe in Christ, so they are condemned

righteousness, Christ is declared righteous (right standing with God and the world is therefore unrighteous), He goes to God and they wont see Him anymore

judgement, the ruler of this world is judged as unworthy, and will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire, along with all his children (unbelievers)

Everyone, dont you see how subtle the serpent is? Twist away and then break you is what happens, into the belly of that beast you will be consumed.

 

your own words "Once saved,we are free to serve God, never free to sin" Any person who is born again, can still obey or disobey the Lord. I have not read the entire thread, but saw your and others comments which I have remarked on. If I have this out of context, then I stand corrected if shown to be wrong

 

1 Cor. 11:7, "For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God". Man here refers to the human race. The "image of God" has to do with our "spiritual" being, and not the "outward appearance". hence we are still able to be convicted of our sins, etc

 

I really wish the Reformers/Calvinists quit pushing their "theology", especailly when it directly opposes what the Bible really teaches!

ἐλέγχω in John 16:8, means, "to convict, expose, put to shame, accuse, test", which is what the Holy Spirit does in the heart of sinners! I have never seen this Greek verb used for "condemn"!

 

Deuteronomy 16:19
You shall not pervert justice; you shall not show partiality, nor take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous.

Psalm 56:5
All day they twist my words; All their thoughts are against me for evil.

Proverbs 19:3
The foolishness of a man twists his way, And his heart frets against the Lord.

Isaiah 27:1
In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong, Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan that twisted serpent; And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.

2 Peter 3:16
as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

 

HA, there is no condemnation for them that believe, but there is for those that dont.
GOD DOES NOT TRY TO SAVE ANYONE...
Those who do not believe stand already condemned because they have not believed.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

John 3:18
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 5:29
and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Romans 5:16
And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

 

which requires FREE WILL! "do NOT believe...not believed", shows that the sinner is responsible!

 

Take a look at Gal5:13...
Christian's are free from the reigning power of sin.
However, we are free to serve others,never FREE to sin.
We are commanded to mortify every sin.
Samuel Bolton described our condition as sin debt paid for, a service debt due.
Can you describe any sin that we are "free" to commit?
Romans6:1-2....God forbid,may it never be.
Can we find agreement here?

I can clarify it in more detail later on if necessary.
As new creations we are to think God's thoughts after Him.Eccl.12.:13-14

 

Nothing here about conviction of the heart that results in salvation of the world...
The world does not get saved, you are taken out of the world, the fate of the world is destruction.
G1651 - elegchō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)
ἐλέγχω
elegchō
Strong's G1651
Outline of Biblical Usage
to convict, refute, confute
generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted
by conviction to bring to the light, to expose
to find fault with, correct

by word
to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove
to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation

by deed
to chasten, to punish

 

"Fools rush in where angels fear to tread". Explaining HOW GOD DOES WHAT ONLY GOD DOES seems like a perfect example, but I never let that stop me before so let's rush in.

Have you ever fallen in love?
Did the other person MAKE YOU FALL IN LOVE WITH THEM?
Did you use your INTELLECT and logically decide to fall in love with them?
Was it your sense of SELF that desired to fall in love with them?

I cannot talk about how God saves anyone else, however I am the worlds leading expert on MY SALVATION. I was there for every moment of it and allowed to hear all of my innermost thoughts. So I will talk about the only thing that I know for sure and you can compare that with whatever other data you can gather.

I had no interest in anything of god or religion. I had been to 20 obligatory church services by age 11 and had rejected the Jesus of Sunday School as no more real or relevant than the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus. That the world is evil was as self-evident as the fact that "god" did nothing about it. So I settled into Nihilism early as the logical conclusion of atheism. "We are born and we die and when we are gone, we do not even leave behind a hole to show that we were here." So I was approaching the age when life ends ... 18 to 21. The age in my world when everyone I knew disappeared. Killed in a drug deal gone bad. Suicide by cop. 25 to life in prison. These were the options and age 18-21 was the typical time frame when luck ran out and the odds caught up with you. If there was a God, then He had a lot of willful neglect to answer for and I certainly belonged in Hell because He was no friend of mine. I only tell you this to emphasize that "seeking God" was the absolute last thing on my mind.

Skipping the nuts and bolts details of how I got saved, let's just focus on the SOUL and what happened in there.
First came a direct attack upon the INTELLECT and the WILL. The discovery of evidence of the POSSIBILITY of bot God and Meaning. A direct attack on my worldview that stirred an ember of hope in a soul fully ready to die and just choosing how. That did not bring me to salvation, that just opened my eyes to "reality". God seduced my soul ... both my WILL and MIND. God spoke, like Saul on the road to Damascus, and I like to joke "God made me an offer that I couldn't refuse". There is more than a little truth in that. On an INTELLECTUAL level, God offered me a complete exchange of everything I had for everything that He had.

• I would give God the death that I had planned; God would give me a new life.
• I would give the anger; God would give peace.
• I would give want; God would supply needs.
• I would surrender wrongs; God would seek justice.
• I would yield despair; God would grant hope

There is a word that I learned years later that describes the INTELLECTUAL contract that I made with God that day: "bondi" (slave, bond-servant) and it is described in the OT:

[Deuteronomy 15:12-17 NASB]
"If your kinsman, a Hebrew man or woman, is sold to you, then he shall serve you six years, but in the seventh year you shall set him free. "When you set him free, you shall not send him away empty-handed. "You shall furnish him liberally from your flock and from your threshing floor and from your wine vat; you shall give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. "You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this today. "It shall come about if he says to you, 'I will not go out from you,' because he loves you and your household, since he fares well with you; then you shall take an awl and pierce it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your servant forever. Also you shall do likewise to your maidservant.​

However, salvation is not just an INTELLECTUAL decision. It touches the WILL as well. Before Christ, I was the center of the universe ... "cogniti ergo som" (I think therefore I am). Everything else was measured in relation to a ME-centric universe. Since the center of the universe had a finite existence, the universe has no ultimate meaning or purpose. Once there is a SON centered universe and I am just a small body orbiting around it, then I can serve a greater purpose even as a lifeless moon controls the tides on an Earth full of Life that can praise God. My WILL found its purpose.

I started talking about "falling in love". I think that God seduced me and I was powerless to resist. I am a being that was created for the purpose of Worshiping God, any other purpose is a cheap ill-fitting alternative. I was created to serve and obey God and any other action is a puzzle piece forced into the wrong place. I am a being that was created for fellowship and love with God and any other love is a tawdry lust affair that cannot satisfy. So when I met the God that defines PERFECT GOODNESS, my entire being just instinctively sings out for joy. I can worship as I was created to do ... I HAVE PURPOSE. I can serve and obey ... I FINALLY FIT. I have found fellowship and love ... MY SOUL IS COMPLETE. How can you not fall in love with your PERFECT CREATOR when you meet Him.

 

we might be free "from" sin, but this can never mean that while in our present bodies, that we are free "to" sin, or else we would be SINLESS!

1 John which was written to believers, says, "8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we amake Him a liar, and His word is not in us." (chap 1)

 

Correct.
Sins dominion has been broken, but while still in a body of flesh, we are regrettably still able to sin.
Free from sins reign,able to obey God's law/word.
In heaven we will no longer be able to sin.
Our self will is never free to sin ,even as a Christian.
If free will existed you would be able to sin in heaven.
God is not free,to lie,sin,or change.
His Holiness and all His holy attributes preclude sin from ever being attached in anyway to Him.
The elect alone are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son.
We are fully responsible for our actions,which is why the passage in 1jn youquoted is there.
So...have we moved from your theology is rubbish, to I understand it now?

 

not so, you forget that we have have new bodies like that of Jesus Christ, only after we are transformed after death, etc. The fact that the Bible commands us to "choose this day whom we shall serve" (Joshua 24:14-15), which surely relates to following the Lord, then it is clear that all sinners must have some "free ability", to be "able" to respond to the Gospel, in, either accepting or rejecting it. God does not do the "repenting and believing" for any sinner, it is their personal decision. This must not be taken to mean, as some do, as a "merited work", in any way, but the sinner merely complying with the Just demands of the Lord, for them to get saved.

 

GLORY HALLELUJAH!! He admits it. Justification is NOT by faith alone!

 

Lol. that about sums it up Icon!

 

... and not all TROLLS live under bridges.
(Keep up the works of your "father" and continue "edifying" the Body ... EVERYONE will be rewarded according to their works.)

 

...that was ugly.

 

Hi LaGrange, my response is from the perspective of a non-Calvinist.

First, let me illustrate a point. When I was in Junior (Middle) school, I loved to draw "mazes." And as a person would try to draw a line through the many twists and turns, they usually ended up at a dead end, and had to back to find where they had made the wrong turn. And no matter how many turns were made after the first wrong turn, all the rest always ended at a dead end. Reaching the right understanding of biblical doctrine requires we make all the right turns, because once we are off the true path, we end up with false doctrine.

In you first question, you used two biblical terms - soul and sanctification process. The body of Christ, made up of professing believers is split as to what constitutes a "human soul." Many believe humans are made up of three parts, body, soul and spirit. Others (including myself) believe we are made up of two parts - the human physical body and the human spirit/soul.
Thus, according to the turn I have taken, when we are spiritually born anew, our human spirit/soul is altered such that it is a new creation. Then, only after we are spiritually made new, are we indwelt with our Helper, the Holy Spirit.

The second term - sanctification process - appears to by referencing "progressive sanctification" where we grow more Christ-like and a more effective witness for Christ. Here is a verse that addresses the concept:

2Corinthians 3:18
And we all, with unveiled faces reflecting the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, which is from the Lord, who is the Spirit. (NET)

The key here is to recognize this process, comes after we are born anew, and thus through our love of Christ, are trying to follow Him.

Now let me turn to the many points you made in your last paragraph:

1) Yes, we are caused to be born anew by God alone.
2) Irresistible Grace means something very different in the Calvinist view. In their view it transforms a person unable to trust in Christ, to being compelled to have faith instilled by God. But if you limit your view to just being placed spiritually into Christ, yes that action is irresistible.
3) No, being "dead in our sins and trespasses" does not mean being unable to make holy choices. Many verses demonstrate fallen people can make holy choices, such as the men "entering" the kingdom in Matthew 23:13.
4) Yes we do not "in any way" save ourselves. God chooses those whose faith He, and He alone credits as righteousness, by placing them individually into Christ, where we undergo the washing of regeneration and arise a new creation, born anew by the will of God.

I know you would have to retrace many steps to be able to accept this very different view from yours, but my hope is in God.

 

The command choose, does not imply an ability, apart from Divine enablement.
Jesus commanded people, rise up and walk,stretch forth your hand, Lazarus, come forth
They were commanded to do what they could not.

 

so, when we read in Acts 17:30, " “Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent", that God is not really serious with His command here, because "all men" cannot repent? So, why did Jesus says to the Jews in John 5, who wanted to murder Him, that, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to Me that you may have life." (39-40). That they REFUSED, showing that they had the ABILITY to ACCEPT! The Greek does not allow the suggestion, "they could not come"! This same truth is taught in Acts 13:46, "Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles." where ἀπωθεῖσθε, in the middle voice, is better, "you yourselves" reject the Gospel!