Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

Alright, if forever does not mean literally forever, then there is not really any eternal life, is there?

 

Not at all. Remember that prophetic language is often NOT literal. Even the most ardent "literalists" have a long track history of interpreting locusts as modern jet fighters, etc.

Jesus spoke plainly of eternal life as opposed to death (perishing):

For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. - John 3:16-17

 

I don't go for this optimistic theology that says if you want it to be literal it is, and if you don't it ain't. In believing in eternal torment for the wicked, I am believing what I wish not to be true. It is infinite punishment for finite crimes, and it does seem unfair for that to be the fate of the large majority of people, as indicated by scripture, while "only a few" find the way to the eternal kingdom. But I can't take the passages, such as Rev. 14 and Luke 16, and say they're only allegories if I don't think that about being in comfort with; Abraham (and is he an allegorical character in scripture?).

I sometimes think about the abortion issue in terms of this. If a baby, though unborn, is a living soul, is having an abortion or killing the child while very young, the only way to ensure that child does not suffer eternal torment?-- because if you allow him or her to grow, he or she might fail to believe. Therefore, if the doctrine of eternal security is true, it makes sense to abort a baby, as the one who does it cannot lose her salvation and the baby is given no chance to decide wrong. After all, we do try to eliminate any chance of a house fire don't we?

 

It’s not optimism, it is careful hermeneutics. Each type of literature found in the Bible has a different method of interpretation. We are very literalistic in Western culture because of the influence of the Enlightenment. We need to recognize that people in other eras and cultures thought quite differently than we do, and the prophetic vernacular is quite different than the pastoral letters. Apocalyptic literature (like Revelation) uses an amalgamation of prophetic allusions to a previous body of literature that the original audience is quite familiar with to help them interpret the complex message.

Not allegory. It is a style of prophetic speaking. How can we know this? Simply look to how God judged Edom. Edom was utterly destroyed, however, there is no column of smoke rising into the heavens forever. If you want to take Isaiah literally, then you have to claim that either Isaiah was wrong, the scripture is wrong, Edom exists in another reality, or the smoke rises, but no one can detect it (which is kind of silly for a warning to others).

Of course not. Genesis 12 and following give no indication that Abraham is anything but a historical figure.

 

Is he a historical figure in Luke 16? How about Lazarus and that rich man? And why is Abraham, himself quite a rich man, telling another rich man he is tormented there because he had his good things in his lifetime, while Abraham did too? Do you think Abe was answering questions from a dead-- not tormented-- man, who can't ask him any?

 

That's the actual language of what the passage ( Revelation 14:9-11 ) states...
The Lord's words to John on the isle of Patmos.

Hell is the final destination for all those not saved by the Lord...
Eternal torment in a lake burning with fire and brimstone.

Respectfully, you may understand it any way you wish.
I understand that if the Bible says that people will suffer eternal torment in the lake of fire, as in Revelation 14, Revelation 20 and Revelation 21, then it means it.

That's why it sobers me greatly... and I view His salvation of my worthless hide as something that is very special, kind and merciful in the light of it.

 

John was revealed something by the Lord Jesus Christ...
Similar to Daniel, a picture of things to come.

Only in this case, it was an even more detailed, God-glorifying and terrible picture than the one that the Lord had Daniel seal up.

"Hermeneutics"?

Please forgive my seeming lack of respect, but I don't recall seeing anywhere in the Bible that word, or even the concept.
Do you mean to tell me that I have to learn a man-made "code" ( or practice a "method of interpretation" ) in order to properly read and understand the Scriptures for myself?

I'm sorry, but I don't know of anywhere in God's word that the believer is told that they are to be dependent upon such things...
In fact, according to Scripture I have everything that I need in the Person of Jesus Christ ( 2 Peter 1:3 ), and He tells me that His people, under the new covenant in His blood, are all taught "of" ( by or from ) God ( Isaiah 54:13, Jeremiah 31:33-34, John 6:45, Hebrews 8:10-11 ).

So, no "hermeneutics" needed...
Only the Holy Spirit ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ), provided by the Lord to all those that truly believe on Him.

 

Men and women are men and women, no matter what culture or level of technology was or is prevalent.

The Bible is intended for God's children in every generation ( Psalms 12:6-7, Romans 15:4, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 )...
For them, it's no more complicated than reading it ( or hearing it preached ) and believing it;
After all, they are His sheep, and His sheep will hear His voice ( John 8:43-47, John 10:27 ).

Studying so that we can rightly divide it ( 2 Timothy 2:15 ) takes time, but it is rewarding...
At least that has been my own experience.

Lastly, it's not a "body of literature" and should never be treated as such...
It's the word of the living God, and I'm honestly amazed at some of the comments I'm finding in this thread and in others on this site about many subjects.



To respond to this 9 year old thread...
The Bible teaches eternal torment; That is what the words say:

" And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." ( Revelation 14:9-11 ).


The Lake of Fire is a terrible place of eternal suffering, and all of those that are truly in Christ can rest assured that they have been saved from it, and to an eternal relationship with Him and His Son.
For those of you that don't believe that, the proof of it will strike exactly one moment after you pass from this life.

The Bible is true...every word of it.

 

"Father Abraham" in the parable that Jesus told, was a reference to a historical person. However, the parable is not historical in itself. The parable is not about being rich, but about being rich AND unconcerned about the poor.

 

Some translators of the Bible, including the influential King James Bible, made a mess of things by translating several different words (with different meanings) as hell. And no, hell is not the final destination of the "unsaved" -- the lake of fire is the final destination -- "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:14)

We have already talked about Revelation 14.

Revelation 20:14 says it is the "second death," not torment (see 20:14). In fact, torment is not mentioned anywhere in chapter 20.

Revelation 21:8 ALSO says "the second death," and torment is not mentioned anywhere in chapter 21.

Yes, the Bible is clear. You are misusing it.

Salvation is eternal life. Those who are unsaved do not have eternal life. Humankind is not inherently immortal.

 

Hermeneutics - the study of the general principles of biblical interpretation. For both Jews and Christians throughout their histories, the primary purpose of hermeneutics, and of the exegetical methods employed in interpretation, has been to discover the truths and values of the Bible.

Not necessarily, but unless you think the world of the Bible was the same as ours (culture, language, technology, worldview, cultural assumptions, politics, social structure, religious influences, etc.), then you are going to have to interpret things keeping all those things in mind. Even in the same culture, we interpret words in various ways, according to who is saying it and the context of how it is said. Biblical hermeneutics (interpretation) is not a "code," but a helpful series of things to keep in mind as we study the scriptures.

 

To the reader:

I'd like to make one final set of replies about this subject in order to clarify how and why I have come to accept where I am on it.
Granted, to some it may seem to be a very harsh position... while to others it is something that we have soberly and quietly come to accept the Bible's teaching on, and is part of how we see who the Lord is...
Both loving and merciful to those He has chosen to have mercy and compassion on, as well as being perfectly willing to show His wrath, holiness and justice and to make His power known to all of His creation ( Romans 9:13-24 ).

Please bear with me as I develop this, and I make apologies in advance for my lengthy replies.

Having read your post above carefully, I agree with you on the final resting place of those who are not saved;
But I do not not agree with your assessment of the Authorized Version.

As I see it, Hell is a holding place for the unsaved until the Judgment.
Therefore, both death and Hell ( the contents of it ) shall be cast into the Lake of Fire, their final resting place.

Thank you for pointing that out to me.

Yes, I saw where you did that.
To me, we have a difference in how we believe the words;

I believe them literally, and it seems that you do not.

 

I disagree.

I clearly see that eternal torment is not mentioned in Revelation 20:14, but it is in both Revelation 14:9-11 and Revelation 20:10, which I will post again for the reader to carefully consider below:

" And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." ( Revelation 14:9-11 )

To me, this clearly states that a group of people will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb ( Jesus Christ ).

Questions for the reader:

The smoke of that torment shall rise up...for how long?
For ever and ever.
They shall have no rest from that torment... for how long?
For ever and ever.
Where is that fire and brimstone that they will be tormented with, located?
Scripture answers the question:

" And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. " ( Revelation 20:10 )

In the above,
I clearly see that both the devil and at least two men ( the "beast" or Anti-Christ and his false prophet ) are going to be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Where shall both death and Hell, as well as anyone not found written in the Book of Life ( written from the foundation of the world, see Revelation 17:8 ) be cast?
Scripture again answers that question:

" And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." ( Revelation 20:14-15 ).

There it is, in no uncertain terms...
at least, if one is believing the words as they are laid out on the page, and literally.

The second death ( being cast into the Lake of Fire ) is reserved for whosoever was not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

 

I agree.
As I see the Scripures clearly stating, it is mentioned for men in both Revelation 14 and Revelation 20.
In addition, the second death, which is mentioned in tandem with torment in Revelation 20:10-15, is mentioned here:

" But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." ( Revelation 21:8 )

Putting it all together, I see that the second death is the Lake of Fire where the smoke of the devil's torment, the smoke of the people who received the mark of the beast and their torment, plus the beast and the false prophet's torment, rises up forever and ever.

Also, it is the final resting place for all fearful, unbelieving, abominable, etc. ( unforgiven sinners );
These shall all partake of the second death.

I agree that you see it one way and I see it another.
If you wish to disagree with my usage of it, then that is fine with me, sir, and I respect that.

May the Lord judge between you and me as to who is using it correctly.

Eternal life is defined as knowing God the Father and His Son per John 17:3,
therefore it is a spiritual thing and an everlasting relationship between the saved and the Lord.

Those who are not saved do not enjoy that everlasting life ( John 3:16, John 3:36, John 5:24 ), that spirit to Spirit relationship....
But rather, the wrath of God abides on them.

However, this does not mean that those who are spiritually dead will not be alive, physically, at the judgment or in the fires of Hell.
Please see Matthew 25:30, Matthew 25:46, Mark 9:43-48 ( "worm" is the Late Middle English term for "remorse" or something that gnaws the conscience, as well as the term that describes someone that is debased and despised ) and many others including this:

" And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone." ( Revelation 19:20 ).

I see God's word teaching that all human beings have an eternal soul and spirit and many will be cast, alive, into eternal torment.
This passage clearly shows at least two men having that done to them.

 

@Baptist Believer:

In summary and from my point of view,

You appear to believe that not only were we as believers in Jesus Christ not saved from everlasting punishment and God's eternal wrath, which consists of terrible suffering and torment,
But that we as believers in Jesus Christ need more than the Holy Spirit ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ) and His preserved word ( Romans 15:4, 2 Timothy 3:15-16 ) in order to know what we have been freely given in the way of God's gifts.

In addition,
Instead of historic Baptist teachings and confessions on this subject:

The Second London Baptist Confession of Faith
The Philadelphia Confession of Faith
The New Hampshire Confession of Faith

and many more, which include these points:

1) ... that all men will be resurrected, in their bodies, to live eternally
2) ... some with the Lord which is the first resurrection unto life ( see Revelation 20:4-6 ), and
3) ... most in the Lake of Fire, which is a place of everlasting torment and the second death which are separated by a thousand years ( see Revelation 20:7-15 )...

...You are instead in agreement with comparable Seventh Day Adventist and others' teachings.

If this is accurate, then I thank you for clarifying that.
If it is not, then I ask that you please clarify what it is that the believer is saved from, if not eternal suffering and wrath in the Lake of Fire...as it seems to me that it is "annihilationism" that you are in agreement with and are teaching.

With all the above stated,
I wish you well, sir, and this is my final reply in this thread.


Again, to the reader in general:

Please examine what has been presented in this thread and use it to make your own decision about this serious and sobering teaching.
May God bless you with wisdom and discernment as you carefully consider what has been presented.

 

You should probably check again, because Jesus clearly engaged in it with his disciples.
Luk 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
That is literally the very word you are denying is in the Bible.

Yes. All of us do.
We can grasp the general outline of Biblical teaching, the major doctrines, etc. without the benefit of such study. But we also can fall into grievous error when we attempt to understand 3,000 year old Ancient Near Eastern Literature through post-modernist Westernized eyes.

Maybe not, but your hermeneutical method is random and untrained.

Well, Jesus engaged in the practice, so........

That's pretty bad hermeneutics.

 

I don't really have the time this evening to go through everything, but I want you to see some places where you are making major errors.

Part 1 of 2

I need to ask you, Isaiah prophesied that Edom will be destroyed. He stated it this way:

For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of retribution for the cause of Zion.
Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
It will not be extinguished night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
- Isaiah 34:8-10

We know that Edom was located in what is now southern Jordan. Tell me, where can I find this lake of fire, filled with sulfur and burning tar, that will not be extinguished and has smoke rising forever?

This would be quite the phenomenon for volcanologists to study. So if we are to take this kind of language literally, where is it today?

You have made some huge assumptions here. You have interpreted "the beast" to be a man instead of a nation/political power. Revelation is drawing on Daniel's visions of the beasts (see Daniel 7-8) which represented kingdoms (specifically, the Babylonian Empire, the Medo-Persian Empire, the Greek Empire, and the Roman Empire). You have also interpreted the "AntiChrist" in a common, but likely unbiblical way. John's three epistles (1, 2, 3 John) mention "antichrists," not a singular figure. There is a mention of the man of lawlessness (see 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, 7-10), but that is likely a reference to Roman Emperor (Caesar/Kaisar/Lord), the one who has declared himself to be divine. The Emperor Caligula attempted to have a statue of himself placed in the Temple somewhere around 40 AD. The Jews resisted it and Caligula died, so it didn't happen. However, the symbolism of that event was not lost on the contemporary readers of Revelation. They were facing severe persecution, and it was going to get worse. The number of the beast (616/666), "is the number of a man," and represents Nero who embodied the entire Roman government. (Note: In Greek the letters of "Nero Kaisar" added together is 616. In Hebrew, the letters of "Neron Kaisar" add up to 666.) The many antichrists (false messiahs) and false teachers are represented by these figures in Revelation.

Continued

 

Part 2 of 2

I need to point out that you are NOT taking the passage literally. It says in no uncertain terms that the lake of fire is the "second death." The first death is of the body. The second is of the soul. ("And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28) The image is destruction. Look at the metaphor that John the Baptist used in speaking of Jesus (“As for me, I baptize you with water; but He is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the straps of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” - Luke 3:16-17) The chaff is not being tortured, it is being consumed ("burned up"). Jesus uses a similar metaphor in His parable of the wheat and the tares. ("...at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.” - Matthew 13:30). His disciples were confused, so He interpreted it plainly, clearly explaining that the weeds/tares are people:

And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the weeds are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 13:37-42​

And then Jesus tells another parable:

“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered fish of every kind; and when it was filled, they pulled it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. So it will be at the end of the age: the angels will come forth and remove the wicked from among the righteous, and they will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 13:37-42​

" But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." ( Revelation 21:8 )[/quote]

Yes, they die and are consumed.

Just like Edom. If Edom is still a lake of fire with smoke going into the sky, then people may be tortured forever. But if Edom is not still burning, then the lake of fire won't burn forever.

If we are going to take this passage from Revelation literally, then you should already know that their body has already died (the first death) and now their soul dies (the second death). This is ONLY talking about the second death.

I'm not that concerned about the Late Middle English meaning of "worm," since that is just a translation. In the Hebrew for this passage, the word (ṯō·w·la‘·tām) means "maggot," and in the Greek (σκώληξ --> skōlēx), a worm that feeds upon dead bodies (a maggot).

So the image is quite clear. It is a maggot feeding on dead bodies. But let's take a close look at what Jesus actually said about the "worm"/maggot:

“Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it is better for him if a heavy millstone is hung around his neck and he is thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire. And if your foot is causing you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life without a foot, than, having your two feet, to be thrown into hell. And if your eye is causing you to sin, throw it away; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not extinguished." - Matthew 9:42-48​

Jesus is referencing a passage from Isaiah 66 that presents the day that God finishes destroying His enemies. Here is part of it:

For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on humanity,
And those put to death by the Lord will be many.
“Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat pig’s flesh, detestable things, and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord.
“For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all the nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory.
...
“For just as the new heavens and the new earth,
Which I make, will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So will your descendants and your name endure.
And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from Sabbath to Sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
“Then they will go out and look
At the corpses of the people
Who have rebelled against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be extinguished;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”
- Isaiah 66:16-18, 22-24​

The passage Jesus references/quotes is plainly referring to corpses. They are unburied bodies, being consumed by fire and maggots in shame, the wrath of God having been unleashed upon them. There will be no one to bury them -- to put out the fire ("quench" or "extinguish") and the maggots will have their fill. Remember, maggots don't die, they move into the next stage of life as flies.

Yes, the lake of fire is the place of death. That has never been in question.

Please cite a passage where it teaches that human beings are eternal, either soul or spirit, outside of a saving relationship with God. I have yet to see one in 35 years of careful study of the scriptures. The closest thing I've ever found is in Ecclesiastes 3:11, where the Preacher states that God has "set eternity in the human heart, yet no one can fathom what God has done from the beginning to end." But that is talking about our innate perception that we were intended to live eternally, but death is the reality of life. Even Adam and Eve had the tree of life to sustain them (it reappears in Revelation 22:2 to provide for life and the "healing of the nations").

Greek philosophy claimed all people are eternal, but the Bible does not.

 

No, I don't believe that at all. I don't know how you came to that conclusion.

After you just incorrectly criticized me because you believe I think people need more than the Holy Spirit, the written scriptures, and spiritual gifts, you trot out some Baptist confessions as evidence. The Baptist confessions are simply evidence that what is currently called the "traditional view" of the afterlife has been around for a long time. Actually, the "traditional view", conditional mortality (aka annihilationism), and universalism have all been present through the last 2,000 years.

I believe i am in agreement with scripture. Seventh Day Adventists, and others, are correct in this one area. They began in the middle of the 19th century, when the conditional mortality/annihilationist view was nearly the most popular viewpoint. In fact, the "traditional view" of hell gained dominance again after World War II, when the crimes of the Axis nations were laid bare. If you look at the 1925 Baptist Faith and Message (Southern Baptist confession), you will notice that they did not give a definitive position on the fate of the wicked, since there was likely a broad difference of opinion.

We are saved from eternally perishing. Read John 3:16, it is the most famous example of the theme throughout scripture, contrasting eternal life and perishing/death.

 

You avoid the real meat of the questions involved. Just what kind of a mythmaker do you think Jesus was to tell a story a about a historical figure answering questions from a dead man in torment? And what would He have said to a listener who remarked "I'm sure glad that story ain't real!"?