Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

If that is the the meaning of fire in scripture, then...

Our God is consuming fire [James 4:8], and we are to draw near to him [Hebrews 12:29].

It appears either way we're destroyed.

 

You do not believe my answer. All you need to know is, I do not believe Luke 16:19-31 is a parable for the reasons I gave. Other than bad interpretations you have no biblical basis to suppose a true account is a parable. We do not agree.

 

You are not making any sense to me. The nether world has an upper and lower place, Luke 16:19-31 and Deuteronomy 32:22. The irregular churches never acknowledge this, that I know of.

 

You gave no reasons, though.
Your argument was something like:
1.) The rich man and Lazarus references historical persons
2.) Therefore, the story must be an historical event.

There's an unexcluded middle premise you have not provided, namely, something like:
--any story which references historical figures must itself be historical--
You have provided no such argument, and no reasons to leap to that conclusion.

I don't, I believe that a parable is a parable.
I also reject that we are supposed to pray to saints, which, you seem to have glossed over and swallowed entirely without a smidgeon of concern.[/QUOTE]

 

No one from Hades, the lower place, goes to the lake of fire until the Judgment, Revelation 20:11-15.

 

We disagree.

 

I know.
But, you have no argument for your disagreement, only your un-biblical traditions.

I have a wealth of arguments and you have no answer to any of them.
I am not surprised by this.
No one who believes that the Bible teaches that the wages of sin is torture has a good argument for their position.
You are no different, you couldn't defend your position in a debate no matter how hard you tried.
I have MOUNTAINS of evidence that Annihilationism is biblical and you have less than nothing for your view.

Annihilationists are used to our opponents having absolutely no intelligent arguments.
Don't feel bad.........you can't out-wit the Bible.
The Bible does not agree with you.

 

Bump

 

I ain't bothering you read your bump. It's too long.

 

Therefore you will not realize that annihilationism is a false teaching.

 

It is unbiblical tradition which calls Jesus' account of the rich man and Lazarus a parable. Tradition fails to acknowlege Deuteronomy 32:22 in regards to Luke 16:19-31. Show me to the contrary.

 

Threads like this come and go.

1) The lost go into eternal punishment, but whether that means eternal conscious torment, or just eternal separation from God is debated.

2) The meaning of "destroyed" (ruined but conscious or existence ended) is debated endlessly.

3) Differing interpretations of this verse are offered:
Revelations 14:11
“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

The conscious eternal torment crowd says smoke of their torment goes up forever means ongoing torment goes on forever. Certainly a likely interpretation. The other side (or one of the differing sides) claims smoke refers to the consequence of being tormented, which is eternal separation from God. They get no rest during the interval of their conscious torment. Less likely but apparently possible alternate interpretation.

4) Usually the two sides are on going conscious torment or immediate annihilation after judgement. The tormented as long as necessary to satisfy God's perfect justice, then annihilated view is usually not discussed. But a variable interval of torment allows for some to receive a more "tolerable" punishment than others. (Matthew 11:22)

Carry on

 

Tradition misses Jesus in His soul died on the cross for sin and completed that before His physical death.

 

Matt 26:38,39 then saith he to them, 'Exceedingly sorrowful is my soul -- unto death; abide ye here, and watch with me.' And having gone forward a little, he fell on his face, praying, and saying, 'My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as Thou.'
Matt 26:42 Again, a second time, having gone away, he prayed, saying, 'My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from me except I drink it, Thy will be done;'
Matt 26:45 then cometh he unto his disciples, and saith to them, 'Sleep on henceforth, and rest! lo, the hour hath come nigh, and the Son of Man is delivered up to the hands of sinners. --- ? By who ?
Acts 2:23 this one, by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, being given out, having taken by lawless hands, having crucified -- ye did slay;




Matthew
And from the sixth hour darkness came over all the land unto the ninth hour, Matt 27:45

and about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a great voice, saying, 'Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' that is, 'My God, my God, why didst Thou forsake me?' Matt 27:46

And certain of those standing there having heard, said -- 'Elijah he doth call;' and immediately, one of them having run, and having taken a spunge, having filled it with vinegar, and having put it on a reed, was giving him to drink, but the rest said, 'Let alone, let us see if Elijah doth come -- about to save him.' Matt 27:47-49

And Jesus having again (Luke 23:46) cried with a great voice, yielded the spirit; Matt 27:50


Luke
And it was, as it were, the sixth hour, and darkness came over all the land till the ninth hour, Luke 23:44

and the sun was darkened, and the vail of the sanctuary was rent in the midst, Luke 23:45

and having cried with a loud voice, (Matt 27:50) Jesus said, 'Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit. Luke 23:46

Acts 2:31 having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

Methinks the soul died when the spirit departed the body. When do you believe the soul of him, died?

What is in the blood that makes the flesh (made from the dust of the earth) soul (living)?

for the life of the flesh (נֶפֶשׁ nephesh) is in the blood, YLT From Lev 17:11
for the soul of the flesh (נֶפֶשׁ nephesh) is in the blood; Darby From Lev 17:11

 

On the cross when He had said the words of Psalms 22:1, Psalms 22:6, ". . . But I am a worm, and no man; . . ." being the state of His dead soul. So when souls of the lost die, it is written of what what does not die, Mark 9:48, ". . . Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Jesus soul was restored when the payment for sin was complete, John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." Jesus could then say, as in Luke 23:46, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: . . ." And so His soul went to paradise in Hades, not the lower place, Psalms 86:13, Psalms 16:10.

 

You are unaware of it...
But, Deuteronomy 32:22 is an Annihilationist proof-text.
It proves the point of Annihilationism, and you don't even know why.

I wish the world were other than it was, but alas, it is not. I'd love for you to be Biblical in your thinking, yet, you remain un-biblical, because you haven't even read the verse you are quoting closely.

Do yourself a favour...
Read Deuteronomy 32:22 again, and if you don't get it.........read it again.

It is evidence for Annihilationism, like practically every verse in the Bible is.

 

The only group I know of who teach annihilationism is Jehovah's Witness.

 

Virtually all cults teach it in some form. The Mormons teach it is only for those members who turned against the faith, while outsiders have various steps to accomplish to gain an honorable status, starting with "spirit prison hell," where the souls of non-mormons must wait (no torment) for someone connected to be baptized for them in a temple. The United Church of God (Armstrong's old outfit) teaches second death in a great fire which will burn itself out (not be quenched). I'm not sure i remember right about The Way International and the moonies.

As for jw's, if you don't want to argue with them (almost always useless), then one thing to tell them is "If I'm going to be annihilated, then I'll never know that you were right and I was wrong; I'll take it."

The point is, they know they've got to eliminate the idea of damnation to convince potential converts that there no eternal price to pay for a radical alteration regarding the Devine.

 

What about, Shakespearism?

To be or not to be.

 

They don't.

Jehova's Witnesses do not teach Annihilationism or rather "Conditional Immortality" as is understood by Bible-believers at all.
The Bible is clear about the fate of the wicked: They are burned in a Lake of consuming Fire wherein they die and do not receive Eternal Life as a believer does.

I don't know what heresy you believe, but the Scriptures are quite clear on the fate of the wicked. The conversation has nothing to do with Jehova's Witnesses, I'd encourage you to depart from them, as the J.W's are not Biblical. Do not be deceived by them.