Annihilationism or Eternal Torment

[Alcott]

First is an argument based on the Bible’s use of fire imagery to describe hell. We are told that fire consumes what is thrown into it, and so it will be for the lake of fire

If that is the the meaning of fire in scripture, then...

Our God is consuming fire [James 4:8], and we are to draw near to him [Hebrews 12:29].

It appears either way we're destroyed.

 

[37818]

Why can it not be a parable???

You do not believe my answer. All you need to know is, I do not believe Luke 16:19-31 is a parable for the reasons I gave. Other than bad interpretations you have no biblical basis to suppose a true account is a parable. We do not agree.

 

[37818]

Ok well that which you are saying is not a parable casts some in hell. You cannot have it both ways

You are not making any sense to me. The nether world has an upper and lower place, Luke 16:19-31 and Deuteronomy 32:22. The irregular churches never acknowledge this, that I know of.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

All you need to know is, I do not believe Luke 16:19-31 is a parable for the reasons I gave.

You gave no reasons, though.
Your argument was something like:
1.) The rich man and Lazarus references historical persons
2.) Therefore, the story must be an historical event.

There's an unexcluded middle premise you have not provided, namely, something like:
--any story which references historical figures must itself be historical--
You have provided no such argument, and no reasons to leap to that conclusion.

you have no biblical basis to suppose a true account is a parable.

I don't, I believe that a parable is a parable.
I also reject that we are supposed to pray to saints, which, you seem to have glossed over and swallowed entirely without a smidgeon of concern.[/QUOTE]

 

[37818]

Ok well that which you are saying is not a parable casts some in hell. You cannot have it both ways

No one from Hades, the lower place, goes to the lake of fire until the Judgment, Revelation 20:11-15.

 

[37818]

You gave no reasons, though.
Your argument was something like:
1.) The rich man and Lazarus references historical persons
2.) Therefore, the story must be an historical event.

There's an unexcluded middle premise you have not provided, namely, something like:
--any story which references historical figures must itself be historical--
You have provided no such argument, and no reasons to leap to that conclusion.

I don't, I believe that a parable is a parable.
I also reject that we are supposed to pray to saints, which, you seem to have glossed over and swallowed entirely without a smidgeon of concern.

We disagree.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

We disagree.

I know.
But, you have no argument for your disagreement, only your un-biblical traditions.

I have a wealth of arguments and you have no answer to any of them.
I am not surprised by this.
No one who believes that the Bible teaches that the wages of sin is torture has a good argument for their position.
You are no different, you couldn't defend your position in a debate no matter how hard you tried.
I have MOUNTAINS of evidence that Annihilationism is biblical and you have less than nothing for your view.

Annihilationists are used to our opponents having absolutely no intelligent arguments.
Don't feel bad.........you can't out-wit the Bible.
The Bible does not agree with you.

 

[AustinC]

Annihilation or Eternal Punishment? by Robert Peterson


Annihilationism is the view that lost people in hell will be exterminated after they have paid the penalty for their sins. Its proponents offer six main arguments.

First is an argument based on the Bible’s use of fire imagery to describe hell. We are told that fire consumes what is thrown into it, and so it will be for the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8)—it will burn up the wicked so that they no longer exist.

Second is an argument based on texts that speak of the lost perishing or being destroyed. Examples include unbelievers perishing (John 3:16) and suffering “the punishment of eternal destruction” (2 Thess. 1:8).

Third is an argument based on the meaning of the word eternal. In hell passages, it is claimed, eternal means only pertaining to “the age to come” and not “everlasting.”

Fourth is an argument based on a distinction between time and eternity. Annihilationists ask: how is it just of God to punish sinners for eternity when their crimes were committed in time?

Fifth is an emotional argument that God Himself and His saints would never enjoy heaven if they knew some human beings (let alone loved ones and friends) were perpetually in hell.

Sixth is an argument that an eternal hell would tarnish God’s victory over evil. Scripture declares that God will be victorious in the end; He will “be all in all” (1 Cor. 15:28). We are told that this idea seems hard to reconcile with human beings suffering endlessly in hell.

I will answer each of these arguments in turn. First is the argument from hellfire. Many passages use this language without interpreting it. It is possible, therefore, to read various views into such passages, including annihilationism. However, we do not want to read our ideas into the Bible, but to get our ideas from the Bible. And when we do, we find that some passages preclude an annihilationist understanding of hellfire. These include Jesus’s description of hell in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus as a “place of torment” (Luke 16:28) involving “anguish in this flame” (v. 24).

When the last book of the Bible describes the flames of hell, it does not speak of consumption but says the lost “will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night” (Rev. 14:10–11).

Second is the argument from passages that speak of destruction or perishing. Once again, when Scripture merely uses these words without interpreting them, many views may be read into them. But once again, we want to read out of Scripture its meaning. And some passages are impossible to reconcile with annihilationism. Paul describes the fate of the lost as suffering “the punishment of eternal destruction” (2 Thess. 1:8). Also telling is the fate of the Beast in Revelation. “Destruction” is prophesied for him in 17:8, 11. The Beast (along with the False Prophet) is cast into “the lake of fire that burns with sulfur” (19:20). Scripture is unambiguous when it describes the fate of the devil, Beast, and False Prophet in the lake of fire: “They will be tormented day and night forever and ever” (20:10). So, the Beast’s “destruction” is everlasting torment in the lake of fire.

Third is the argument from the word eternal. In hell passages, it is claimed, eternal means only pertaining to “the age to come” and not “everlasting.” It is true that in the New Testament, eternal means “agelong,” with the context defining the age. And in texts treating eternal destinies, eternal does refer to the age to come. But the age to come lasts as long as the life of the eternal God Himself. Because He is eternal—He “lives forever and ever” (Rev. 4:9, 10; 10:6; 15:7)—so is the age to come. Jesus plainly sets this forth in His message on the sheep and goats: “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matt. 25:46; italics added). The punishment of the lost in hell is coextensive to the bliss of the righteous in heaven—both are everlasting.

Fourth is the argument that it is unjust of God to punish sinners eternally for temporal sins. It strikes me as presumptuous for human beings to tell God what is just and unjust. We would do better to determine from His Holy Word what He deems just and unjust.

Jesus leaves no doubt. He will say to the saved, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world” (Matt. 25:34). He will say to the lost, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” (v. 41). We have already seen John define that fire as eternal conscious punishment in the lake of fire for the devil (Rev. 20:10). A few verses later, we read that unsaved human beings share the same fate (vv. 14–15). Evidently, God thinks it just to punish human beings who rebel against Him and His holiness with everlasting hell. Is it really our place to call this unjust?

I will treat the fifth and sixth arguments together. The fifth is the emotional argument that God and His saints would never enjoy heaven if they knew loved ones and friends were forever in hell. The sixth is the argument that an eternal hell would tarnish God’s victory over evil. It is noteworthy that universalists use these same two arguments to insist that God will finally save every human being. God and His people would not enjoy the bliss of heaven if even one soul remained in hell, they argue. In the end, everyone will be saved. And God would suffer defeat if any creatures made in His image were to perish forever.

I regard these arguments for annihilationism and universalism—from emotion and from God’s victory—as rewriting the biblical story, something we have no right to do. I say this because the Bible’s final three chapters present the eternal state of affairs. The resurrected saints will be blessed with God’s eternal presence on the new earth (Rev. 21:1–4). And, interestingly for our present discussion, each of Scripture’s final three chapters presents the fate of the unsaved:

And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (20:10)Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown in to the lake of fire. (vv. 14–15)But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death. (21:8)Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. (22:14–15)
The Bible’s story does not end by saying, “And the unrighteous were destroyed and exist no more.” Neither does it say, “And in the end all persons will be gathered into the love of God and be saved.” Rather, when God brings His story to a close, His people rejoice in endless bliss with Him on the new earth. But the wicked will endure never-ending torment in the lake of fire and be shut out of the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, which is the joyous dwelling place of God and His people forever.

We have no right to rewrite the biblical story. Rather, we must leave it to God to define what is just and unjust and what is commensurate with His being “all in all.” He does not leave us in doubt about hell because He loves sinners and wants them to believe the gospel in this life.

How kind and merciful of Him to include this invitation at the end of His story: “The Spirit and the Bride say, ‘Come.’ And let the one who hears say, ‘Come.’ And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price” (Rev. 22:17). All who trust Jesus in His death and resurrection to rescue them from hell will have a part in the Tree of Life and the Holy City of God. All who do so with all the saints can say now and will say forever:

Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, for his judgments are true and just. (19:1–2)

Annihilation or Eternal Punishment? by Robert Peterson

Bump

 

[Alcott]

I ain't bothering you read your bump. It's too long.

 

[AustinC]

I ain't bothering you read your bump. It's too long.

Therefore you will not realize that annihilationism is a false teaching.

 

[37818]

But, you have no argument for your disagreement, only your un-biblical traditions.

It is unbiblical tradition which calls Jesus' account of the rich man and Lazarus a parable. Tradition fails to acknowlege Deuteronomy 32:22 in regards to Luke 16:19-31. Show me to the contrary.

 

[Van]

Threads like this come and go.

1) The lost go into eternal punishment, but whether that means eternal conscious torment, or just eternal separation from God is debated.

2) The meaning of "destroyed" (ruined but conscious or existence ended) is debated endlessly.

3) Differing interpretations of this verse are offered:
Revelations 14:11
“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

The conscious eternal torment crowd says smoke of their torment goes up forever means ongoing torment goes on forever. Certainly a likely interpretation. The other side (or one of the differing sides) claims smoke refers to the consequence of being tormented, which is eternal separation from God. They get no rest during the interval of their conscious torment. Less likely but apparently possible alternate interpretation.

4) Usually the two sides are on going conscious torment or immediate annihilation after judgement. The tormented as long as necessary to satisfy God's perfect justice, then annihilated view is usually not discussed. But a variable interval of torment allows for some to receive a more "tolerable" punishment than others. (Matthew 11:22)

Carry on

 

[37818]

Threads like this come and go.

1) The lost go into eternal punishment, but whether that means eternal conscious torment, or just eternal separation from God is debated.

2) The meaning of "destroyed" (ruined but conscious or existence ended) is debated endlessly.

3) Differing interpretations of this verse are offered:
Revelations 14:11
“And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

The conscious eternal torment crowd says smoke of their torment goes up forever means ongoing torment goes on forever. Certainly a likely interpretation. The other side (or one of the differing sides) claims smoke refers to the consequence of being tormented, which is eternal separation from God. They get no rest during the interval of their conscious torment. Less likely but apparently possible alternate interpretation.

4) Usually the two sides are on going conscious torment or immediate annihilation after judgement. The tormented as long as necessary to satisfy God's perfect justice, then annihilated view is usually not discussed. But a variable interval of torment allows for some to receive a more "tolerable" punishment than others. (Matthew 11:22)

Carry on

Tradition misses Jesus in His soul died on the cross for sin and completed that before His physical death.

 

[percho]

Tradition misses Jesus in His soul died on the cross for sin and completed that before His physical death.

Matt 26:38,39 then saith he to them, 'Exceedingly sorrowful is my soul -- unto death; abide ye here, and watch with me.' And having gone forward a little, he fell on his face, praying, and saying, 'My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as Thou.'
Matt 26:42 Again, a second time, having gone away, he prayed, saying, 'My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from me except I drink it, Thy will be done;'
Matt 26:45 then cometh he unto his disciples, and saith to them, 'Sleep on henceforth, and rest! lo, the hour hath come nigh, and the Son of Man is delivered up to the hands of sinners. --- ? By who ?
Acts 2:23 this one, by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, being given out, having taken by lawless hands, having crucified -- ye did slay;




Matthew
And from the sixth hour darkness came over all the land unto the ninth hour, Matt 27:45

and about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a great voice, saying, 'Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' that is, 'My God, my God, why didst Thou forsake me?' Matt 27:46

And certain of those standing there having heard, said -- 'Elijah he doth call;' and immediately, one of them having run, and having taken a spunge, having filled it with vinegar, and having put it on a reed, was giving him to drink, but the rest said, 'Let alone, let us see if Elijah doth come -- about to save him.' Matt 27:47-49

And Jesus having again (Luke 23:46) cried with a great voice, yielded the spirit; Matt 27:50


Luke
And it was, as it were, the sixth hour, and darkness came over all the land till the ninth hour, Luke 23:44

and the sun was darkened, and the vail of the sanctuary was rent in the midst, Luke 23:45

and having cried with a loud voice, (Matt 27:50) Jesus said, 'Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit. Luke 23:46

Acts 2:31 having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

Methinks the soul died when the spirit departed the body. When do you believe the soul of him, died?

What is in the blood that makes the flesh (made from the dust of the earth) soul (living)?

for the life of the flesh (נֶפֶשׁ nephesh) is in the blood, YLT From Lev 17:11
for the soul of the flesh (נֶפֶשׁ nephesh) is in the blood; Darby From Lev 17:11

 

[37818]

Methinks the soul died when the spirit departed the body. When do you believe the soul of him, died?

On the cross when He had said the words of Psalms 22:1, Psalms 22:6, ". . . But I am a worm, and no man; . . ." being the state of His dead soul. So when souls of the lost die, it is written of what what does not die, Mark 9:48, ". . . Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
Jesus soul was restored when the payment for sin was complete, John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." Jesus could then say, as in Luke 23:46, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: . . ." And so His soul went to paradise in Hades, not the lower place, Psalms 86:13, Psalms 16:10.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

It is unbiblical tradition which calls Jesus' account of the rich man and Lazarus a parable. Tradition fails to acknowlege Deuteronomy 32:22 in regards to Luke 16:19-31. Show me to the contrary.

You are unaware of it...
But, Deuteronomy 32:22 is an Annihilationist proof-text.
It proves the point of Annihilationism, and you don't even know why.

I wish the world were other than it was, but alas, it is not. I'd love for you to be Biblical in your thinking, yet, you remain un-biblical, because you haven't even read the verse you are quoting closely.

Do yourself a favour...
Read Deuteronomy 32:22 again, and if you don't get it.........read it again.

It is evidence for Annihilationism, like practically every verse in the Bible is.

 

[AustinC]

The only group I know of who teach annihilationism is Jehovah's Witness.

 

[Alcott]

The only group I know of who teach annihilationism is Jehovah's Witness.

Virtually all cults teach it in some form. The Mormons teach it is only for those members who turned against the faith, while outsiders have various steps to accomplish to gain an honorable status, starting with "spirit prison hell," where the souls of non-mormons must wait (no torment) for someone connected to be baptized for them in a temple. The United Church of God (Armstrong's old outfit) teaches second death in a great fire which will burn itself out (not be quenched). I'm not sure i remember right about The Way International and the moonies.

As for jw's, if you don't want to argue with them (almost always useless), then one thing to tell them is "If I'm going to be annihilated, then I'll never know that you were right and I was wrong; I'll take it."

The point is, they know they've got to eliminate the idea of damnation to convince potential converts that there no eternal price to pay for a radical alteration regarding the Devine.

 

[percho]

What about, Shakespearism?

To be or not to be.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

The only group I know of who teach annihilationism is Jehovah's Witness.

They don't.

Jehova's Witnesses do not teach Annihilationism or rather "Conditional Immortality" as is understood by Bible-believers at all.
The Bible is clear about the fate of the wicked: They are burned in a Lake of consuming Fire wherein they die and do not receive Eternal Life as a believer does.

I don't know what heresy you believe, but the Scriptures are quite clear on the fate of the wicked. The conversation has nothing to do with Jehova's Witnesses, I'd encourage you to depart from them, as the J.W's are not Biblical. Do not be deceived by them.