Featured Romans 9 and Reformed Error

You should carry around a gong and strike it for effect.

 

And it is clear from the text that Paul is making the correlation to salvation. Esau was not elect, he was not part of the nation of Israel, Jacob was.

 

There definitely is in other passages, again, you can't just single out a few verses.

 

Listen, Jacob and Esau had nothing to do with salvation in the scriptures. That is not debatable, and some Calvinist authors grant that.
That being said, some non-Cals go to the extreme of saying that nothing in Romans 9 is about salvation.
That's also wrong.

Paul simply uses the principle of God's choice apart from works, unto service and blessing for Esau and Jacob, and argues that God can likewise choose people unto salvation based on their faith not their works.

By the way, note that God's choice for Jacob was made in the womb, not eternity past.

 

And again, whenever we get to these other passages, and knock you out, you take us back to the initial passage. It's constant circular pointing.

 

They do when Paul uses them as an illustration regarding the nature and events of salvation. So yes, it is debatable and you are wrong.

Except in context that isn't even close to what that passage says.

Where is that found in Scripture?

 

It's not circular reasoning. The only way you "knock us out" is if you ignore other Scriptures.

 

I mentioned why twice.

Your word is not enough. Give exposition.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

Gen 25:22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

You want to argue that technically that doesn't necessarily mean that the choice was made then, fine.
Show me the decree made in eternity.
And I hope you're ready to show us how the elect were in Christ back in eternity, then fell out of Christ and got into Adam.

 

Look, I take the time to write out an exposition. You want to argue it's wrong, give some exposition, rather than spurting pontifications.

 

I guess I missed your "exposition..."

 

post #77

 

Since we know God makes the choices before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4), it is actually your burden to prove that choice was actually made in the womb. Bottom line, it does not say that. You read that into the passage.

 

A) you were not in Christ back before the foundation of the world.
B) the election there is not unto salvation.

 

You are conflating two different things. You are confusing vessels prepared for wrath, with vessels prepared for mercy as being the same thing as under wrath and coming into mercy.

It is true, we are all under wrath before salvation. It is not true that we were a vessel PREPARED for wrath (destruction) and then suddenly have a different purpose. You do not find that in Scripture. It does not just say vessels of wrath. It says vessels of wrath that are prepared for destruction. It then says vessels of mercy PREPARED BEFOREHAND.

You are cherry-picking parts of the verse to "support" your claim and conveniently leave out the parts that destroy your position.

 

It does not say we are in Christ before salvation and I did not say that either. This is a strawman argument.

 

Refers to Pharaoh of the exodus, correct?

 

I keep reading between the lines that some see it as making God "not fair"

 

You're partially right. In context, it's a reference to hardened Israel. However, there is also:

Isa 30:33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

Etc.

Not eternity past, just beforehand.