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Romans 9 and Reformed Error

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George Antonios

Well-Known Member
I see you opposed to Divine truth, yet you take the role of one who will set the whole reformed world right. You see what millions have missed, to a point that you see all the puritans and reformers as heretics.
When answers are offered you like many others deflect , or disappear.
We are meant to move forward from these basic truths and build on them. Not make foolish caricatures and attempt to oppose those who would move forward. As a consequence, you come up short and will continue to do so.

You should carry around a gong and strike it for effect.
 
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Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
And here we go again with the anti-KJV refrain (#2 in signature). Cue the yawn.
The word election is not mistranslated, and just because the Calvinist brethren have developed the Pavlovian reflex of hearing "salvation" whenever they read "election", doesn't mean I'm gonna change the word of God to counter that reflex; in which case they would anyway simply react similarly to any new word chosen, and we would be back to square 1.
That the election there (in relation to Jacob and Esau) is unto blessing, not salvation, is clear from the text.
And it is clear from the text that Paul is making the correlation to salvation. Esau was not elect, he was not part of the nation of Israel, Jacob was.
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
And it is clear from the text that Paul is making the correlation to salvation. Esau was not elect, he was not part of the nation of Israel, Jacob was.

Listen, Jacob and Esau had nothing to do with salvation in the scriptures. That is not debatable, and some Calvinist authors grant that.
That being said, some non-Cals go to the extreme of saying that nothing in Romans 9 is about salvation.
That's also wrong.

Paul simply uses the principle of God's choice apart from works, unto service and blessing for Esau and Jacob, and argues that God can likewise choose people unto salvation based on their faith not their works.

By the way, note that God's choice for Jacob was made in the womb, not eternity past.
 

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Listen, Jacob and Esau had nothing to do with salvation in the scriptures. That is not debatable, and some Calvinist authors grant that.
They do when Paul uses them as an illustration regarding the nature and events of salvation. So yes, it is debatable and you are wrong.

Paul simply uses the principle of God's choice apart from works, unto service and blessing for Esau and Jacob, and argues that God can likewise choose people unto salvation based on their faith not their works.
Except in context that isn't even close to what that passage says.

Note that God's choice for Jacob was made in the womb, not eternity past.
Where is that found in Scripture?
 

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
I see you opposed to Divine truth, yet you take the role of one who will set the whole reformed world right. You see what millions have missed, to a point that you see all the puritans and reformers as heretics.
When answers are offered you like many others deflect , or disappear.
We are meant to move forward from these basic truths and build on them. Not make foolish caricatures and attempt to oppose those who would move forward. As a consequence, you come up short and will continue to do so.

still cannot respond to the OP! :rolleyes:
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
They do when Paul uses them as an illustration regarding the nature and events of salvation. So yes, it is debatable and you are wrong.

I mentioned why twice.

Except in context that isn't even close to what that passage says.

Your word is not enough. Give exposition.

Where is that found in Scripture?

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

Gen 25:22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

You want to argue that technically that doesn't necessarily mean that the choice was made then, fine.
Show me the decree made in eternity.
And I hope you're ready to show us how the elect were in Christ back in eternity, then fell out of Christ and got into Adam.
 

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

Gen 25:22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

You want to argue that technically that doesn't necessarily mean that the choice was made then, fine.
Show me the decree made in eternity.
And I hope you're ready to show us how the elect were in Christ back in eternity, then fell out of Christ and got into Adam.
Since we know God makes the choices before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4), it is actually your burden to prove that choice was actually made in the womb. Bottom line, it does not say that. You read that into the passage.
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
Since we know God makes the choices before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4), it is actually your burden to prove that choice was actually made in the womb. Bottom line, it does not say that. You read that into the passage.

A) you were not in Christ back before the foundation of the world.
B) the election there is not unto salvation.
 

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
  • Firstly, I don't know what you quoted, but let's quote the true words of God.
It's not "in order to" in Romans 9:23; it's "and that".
Let's not pick the version that best suits our theology, but let's stick with the God-honoured text of the reformation.
  • Secondly, this is a case study in how one's theology unconsciously bends the text to fit the mold.
Please try to understand what I'm saying. Don't agree with it, just understand it:

The problem here is that when you read vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy you read that as 2 groups with the vessels of each group never migrating from one group to the other because they've been set in those groups by an unchangeable decree from eternity past. In your mind vessels of wrath can never become vessels of mercy, nor vice-versa.

Now we know that a man that rejects the Son abides under the wrath of God while in that state:
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Men in a state of rejection, are at that point, by definition, vessels of wrath.
But if they repent and receive the Son, those same vessels of wrath become vessels of mercy:
Rom_11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Even as the hardened Jews themselves, will, upon faith in Christ one day, go from wrath to mercy:
Rom_11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Paul is asking: “And what if I told you that God, though willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, nevertheless endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction because he also wants to make known the riches of his glory in mercy – as opposed to just his willingness to shew his wrath – which glory, by his longsuffering, he makes known on vessels of mercy – since the longsuffering (2:4/9:22) of God leadeth…to repentance (Ro.2:4) – which vessels of mercy are the same as the now-former vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; would you still say that there is unrighteousness with God (v.14)?”
I.e. Paul's counter to the objections of vs. 14 & 20 (God is unrighteous, why hath me made me thus?) is: "Yes God can harden you because of your unbelief, irrespective of your good works, but God is also longsuffering and he desires to show mercy so if you repent by believing, then you will become a vessel of mercy instead of of wrath".

The proof that the vessels of mercy are the former vessels of wrath lies in Paul’s own and immediately following illustration of his own point: Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles [who are in their natural rejected state, as Ishmael and Esau earlier, vessels of wrath]? Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people [note the change: the Gentiles were not God’s people – vessels of wrath, but have now become God’s people –vessels of mercy]; and her beloved, which was not beloved [once again he mentions a change: the Gentiles were not beloved – vessels of wrath, but have now become beloved – vessels of mercy]. Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God [a 3rd time: the Gentiles were not children (look back to v.7 now!) – vessels of wrath, but have now become God’s children – vessels of mercy]. The idea is that even though Gentiles are not children of the promise, and not part of God’s election, yet their lot can still change! It’s not final, just as in Jeremiah 18!
And that's just the illustration in Jeremiah 18, which Paul is in fact alluding to:
Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. Jer 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

So the longsuffering on the vessels of wrath is so that God may remold them into vessels of mercy.

And of course, that's what Peter says that the longsuffering of God is for: 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

You may have skimmed over all this, but please understand that when we non-Cals read vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy, they're only potential groups wherein one may be found depending on his belief or lack thereof. Even the hardening can be temporary. They are permeable groups with a possible transfer from wrath to mercy, they are not categories wherein individuals have been permanently placed (I'm not denying eternal security in the church age).
You may not agree, and that's fine, but your Calvinistic view of those vessels colours how you read those groups, hence our different interpretations.
There is nothing in text about eternally pre-determined groups, as far as their population.
Rather, for chapters in a row Paul keeps talking about the longsuffering of God transforming vessels of wrath into vessels of mercy - like he did with you and me brother.
That is Bible, it's simple, it's straightforward, and you all believed it at some point before you got all "enlightened".
You are conflating two different things. You are confusing vessels prepared for wrath, with vessels prepared for mercy as being the same thing as under wrath and coming into mercy.

It is true, we are all under wrath before salvation. It is not true that we were a vessel PREPARED for wrath (destruction) and then suddenly have a different purpose. You do not find that in Scripture. It does not just say vessels of wrath. It says vessels of wrath that are prepared for destruction. It then says vessels of mercy PREPARED BEFOREHAND.

You are cherry-picking parts of the verse to "support" your claim and conveniently leave out the parts that destroy your position.
 

Yeshua1

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What does the text say?

Romans 9:22-33

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.” What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousnessdid not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

The text gives both you and sbw the very answer, yet you seem to utterly despise the answer and attempt to change the words and meaning to fit your own image of God, which you can then approve for yourself.
My admonition to you and sbw is to accept the full counsel of God regarding His Sovereign means of salvation. God is very clear, yet you keep attempting to obfuscate.
I keep reading between the lines that some see it as making God "not fair"
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
It is not true that we were a vessel PREPARED for wrath (destruction)

You're partially right. In context, it's a reference to hardened Israel. However, there is also:

Isa 30:33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

Etc.

BEFOREHAND

Not eternity past, just beforehand.
 
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