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Are Human Beings Born Sinners?

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Martin Marprelate

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then the verses in the OP that clearly show that there is a time in the life of the infant, which is only known to God, that they are not "sinners", as they have not "committed" any sin. This is the case with the son of David, which the Bible says went to heaven after his death, where David joined him after his death. Verses like Romans 3:23 have no bearing on this, because this verse speaks of people who are "sinners", but those like David's son, are clearly not. There is no other way that David's son could be in heaven. The speculation of Spurgeon, is no more than just that.
One more answer and I'm done. Firstly, Spurgeon was a far better man than either you or I. He is, as I said, in line with the various confessions. 'Infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit (John 3:3-6), who works when, where and how He pleases (John 3:8). So also are all elect persons who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word..' Secondly, the Bible clearly teaches that we are born sinners. The fact that newborn infants have not yet had the opportunity to sin does not affect that.
This is clearly observable in small children.. you have to teach an infant everything: how to be clean, how to walk, how to talk, how to hold a knife and/or fork and so forth. But the one thing you do not have to teach an infant is how to sin. No one has to tell a small child. "Now Johnny, this is how to be selfish. You keep all your toys to yourself and don't let your sister play with them." Or, "Now then, Jenny, here's how to tell a lie; you think of something that isn't true and say it as if it is." No! Children come naturally to these things without any instruction, because they have sinful natures. Parents can instill some sort of right behaviour in them, but that sinful, selfish nature is right there inside.
So, if children dying in infancy are saved, and you may be right to point to 2 Samuel 12:23 to suggest that they are, it will be God who saves them by His grace and mercy alone, not they themselves by their purity, for they have none.

Every one of the Great Crowd of Revelation 7, standing around the throne dressed in white, including the saved infants, is saying the same thing: "Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb." God owes salvation to no one.

"Not to us, O LORD, not unto us, but to Your name give glory, because of Your mercy, because of Your truth"
(Psalms 115:1).
 

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
I believe what the Bible actually says and not your theology
Theology literally has nothing to do with it. Not a single one of the verses say the children did not sin. The only one that even states that talks about unborn children which are irrelevant to the topic.

Not knowing what sin is, not knowing what evil is, does not mean you cannot sin. Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge of good and evil but they were still able to sin. Have you considered this?
 

Yeshua1

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Theology literally has nothing to do with it. Not a single one of the verses say the children did not sin. The only one that even states that talks about unborn children which are irrelevant to the topic.

Not knowing what sin is, not knowing what evil is, does not mean you cannot sin. Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge of good and evil but they were still able to sin. Have you considered this?
Some seem to not agree with the scriptures that all have sinned in Adam, and that none escape being sinners, save for the Lord Jesus!
 

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Theology literally has nothing to do with it. Not a single one of the verses say the children did not sin. The only one that even states that talks about unborn children which are irrelevant to the topic.

Not knowing what sin is, not knowing what evil is, does not mean you cannot sin. Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge of good and evil but they were still able to sin. Have you considered this?

OK. Let's end here. Thanks for sharing
 

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
My take was that you do not see us as being accounted by God as being sinners until we make the conscious decision to start sinning!

I am only going by the Scriptures, until I am proven to be wrong. It is clear that there are verses as in the OP, that there are babies in the womb, not as yet born, as in Romans, that are said not to have done anything right or wrong. And such is the verse in Isaiah. This says that the Bible teaches that there is a time, known only to God, that "infants" are not regarded as "sinners", as in actually committing any sins. Then we have the case which is David's son, who died and went to heaven, later to be joined by David himself. This is not me, but the Bible. If wrong, please feel free to correct me. But using verses like Romans 3:23 do not answer the OP, as this verse speaks of those who are "sinners", which these infants are not, according to the Word. And we know that there are zero contradictions in the 66 Boks of the Holy Bible!
 

37818

Well-Known Member
a figure of speech! how many babies do you know, who from day one in this world, "speak lies"? It takes them months to even say their first word, which is usually mum or dad, which are not normally "lies"! :rolleyes:
A figure of speach, or because it does not fit your understanding?
 

Yeshua1

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I am only going by the Scriptures, until I am proven to be wrong. It is clear that there are verses as in the OP, that there are babies in the womb, not as yet born, as in Romans, that are said not to have done anything right or wrong. And such is the verse in Isaiah. This says that the Bible teaches that there is a time, known only to God, that "infants" are not regarded as "sinners", as in actually committing any sins. Then we have the case which is David's son, who died and went to heaven, later to be joined by David himself. This is not me, but the Bible. If wrong, please feel free to correct me. But using verses like Romans 3:23 do not answer the OP, as this verse speaks of those who are "sinners", which these infants are not, according to the Word. And we know that there are zero contradictions in the 66 Boks of the Holy Bible!
So you do not see that in Adam all spiritually died, and that those in Christ now made spiritually alive?
 

37818

Well-Known Member
I am only going by the Scriptures, until I am proven to be wrong. It is clear that there are verses as in the OP, that there are babies in the womb, not as yet born, as in Romans, that are said not to have done anything right or wrong. And such is the verse in Isaiah. This says that the Bible teaches that there is a time, known only to God, that "infants" are not regarded as "sinners", as in actually committing any sins. Then we have the case which is David's son, who died and went to heaven, later to be joined by David himself. This is not me, but the Bible. If wrong, please feel free to correct me. But using verses like Romans 3:23 do not answer the OP, as this verse speaks of those who are "sinners", which these infants are not, according to the Word. And we know that there are zero contradictions in the 66 Books of the Holy Bible!
You do know what pelagianism is?
 

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
So you do not see that in Adam all spiritually died, and that those in Christ now made spiritually alive?

All humans inherited a sinful nature from Adam and Eve. But surely they only become sinners after they actually commit a sin? The verses in the OP cannot be ignored
 
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