Are Unbelievers Free Agents Who Do Their Own Will Whenever They Want?

[Scripture More Accurately]

Are unbelievers free agents who do their own will or are they under the authority of the devil to do his will unless God intervenes in their lives?

 

[Reformed1689]

Are unbelievers free agents who do their own will or are they under the authority of the devil to do his will unless God intervenes in their lives?

Yes, they do their own will which is always sinful without God intervening.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Yes, they do their own will which is always sinful without God intervening.

Are you saying that they are free agents who do not do the devil's will but their own will?

 

[Reformed1689]

Are you saying that they are free agents who do not do the devil's will but their own will?

Yes, though their will would line up with the devil's will but he doesn't determine their will if that makes sense.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Yes, though their will would line up with the devil's will but he doesn't determine their will if that makes sense.

Scripture teaches that all unbelievers are under the authority of Satan:

Acts 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power [τῆς ἐξουσίας; "authority"] of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Col. 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power [τῆς ἐξουσίας; "authority"] of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

So do unbelievers do their own will or do they do Satan's will? If they do their own will, what does it mean that they are under Satan's authority?

 

[Van]

Once again we see the false claim that being made unable to seek God or trust in Christ, allows free will. That is like being free to choose hanging or injection. In order for the word "free" to mean free, it means able to make a choice that alters the outcome, life from death. The actual reality is our will is not free, being predisposed to sin, and through the practice of sin to harden our hearts so that we are unable to understand and respond to the gospel. However, before that (provided God has not chosen to harden the heart as He did in Romans 11) we are able to hear and understand to spiritual milk, which includes the gospel.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Once again we see the false claim that being made unable to seek God or trust in Christ, allows free will. That is like being free to choose hanging or injection. In order for the word "free" to mean free, it means able to make a choice that alters the outcome, life from death. The actual reality is our will is not free, being predisposed to sin, and through the practice of sin to harden our hearts so that we are unable to understand and respond to the gospel. However, before that (provided God has not chosen to harden the heart as He did in Romans 11) we are able to hear and understand to spiritual milk, which includes the gospel.

What does this comment have to do with what I am talking about concerning whether unbelievers do their own will or they do the devil's will?

 

[Reformed1689]

Scripture teaches that all unbelievers are under the authority of Satan:

Acts 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power [τῆς ἐξουσίας; "authority"] of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Col. 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power [τῆς ἐξουσίας; "authority"] of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

So do unbelievers do their own will or do they do Satan's will? If they do their own will, what does it mean that they are under Satan's authority?

Authority is not the only translation of that word. Influence, domain, etc. That is why I said they do their own will, which would align with the will of Satan because it is the will to live in sin.

 

[Reformed1689]

What does this comment have to do with what I am talking about concerning whether unbelievers do their own will or they do the devil's will?

He doesn't like me saying that their own will will always be sinful without Divine intervention.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Authority is not the only translation of that word. Influence, domain, etc. That is why I said they do their own will, which would align with the will of Satan because it is the will to live in sin.

Saying that it could mean influence or domain does not prove that it does mean that instead of authority in any given passage.

Moreover, Scripture also teaches,

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

This passage teaches that every unbeliever lives his life according to the prince of the power of the air (the devil) and is being energized by the devil in his disobedience. So do they do their own will or do they do the will of the devil who is energizing them in their disobedience?

 

[Reformed1689]

Saying that it could mean influence or domain does not prove that it does mean that instead of authority. Scripture also teaches,

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

This passage teaches that every unbeliever lives his life according to the prince of the power of the air (the devil) and is being energized by the devil in his disobedience. So do they do their own will or do they do the will of the devil who is energizing them in their disobedience?

Yes I understand. Notice what I am saying is not in disagreement with that. But man has responsibility in this. It is his own will. What is will? It is what you want, what you desire. Romans 1 makes clear it is our own want/desire.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Yes I understand. Notice what I am saying is not in disagreement with that. But man has responsibility in this. It is his own will. What is will? It is what you want, what you desire. Romans 1 makes clear it is our own want/desire.

Scripture goes even further and explicitly says that the devil takes people captive at his will:

2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Are you asserting that even though people are captives to the devil, they still do their own will and not the devil's will?

 

[Reformed1689]

Are you asserting that even though people are captives to the devil, they still do their own will and not the devil's will?

What is that verse actually referring to?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

What is that verse actually referring to?

People who have been snared by the devil and have been taken captive by him at his will. Do such captives of the devil do their own will or do they do the will of the devil?

 

[Reformed1689]

People who have been snared by the devil and have been taken captive by him at his will. Do such captives of the devil do their own will or do they do the will of the devil?

First, I don't think that verse is talking about people in general if you look at the context. Second, as I have stated, it is their own will, that aligns with the Devil. So if you want to split hairs, yes, unbelievers do the will of the devil because they have the same will.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

First, I don't think that verse is talking about people in general if you look at the context. Second, as I have stated, it is their own will, that aligns with the Devil. So if you want to split hairs, yes, unbelievers do the will of the devil because they have the same will.

It may be that the verse is not talking about people in general.

I am not wanting "to split hairs"; I am seeking biblical precision in what I believe and say.

Jesus certainly was not "splitting hairs" when he said the following about certain people:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Notice that Jesus explicitly said that these people would do the lusts of their father the devil. He could have said that they would do their own lusts, but that is not what He said.

Based on what Jesus said here, would you still insist that even these people would do their own will or would you agree with Jesus and say that they would do the devil's will?

 

[Reformed1689]

It may be that the verse is not talking about people in general.

I am not wanting "to split hairs"; I am seeking biblical precision in what I believe and say.

Jesus certainly was not "splitting hairs" when he said the following about certain people:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Notice that Jesus explicitly said that these people would do the lusts of their father the devil. He could have said that they would do their own lusts, but that is not what He said.

Based on what Jesus said here, would you still insist that even these people would do their own will or would you agree with Jesus and say that they would do the devil's will?

I will say what I have said from the start they do both and not either or.

 

[Van]

What does this comment have to do with what I am talking about concerning whether unbelievers do their own will or they do the devil's will?

Everything

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I will say what I have said from the start they do both and not either or.

Everything that Jesus ever did and said was perfect in every way. He did not say in John 8:44 that those people would do their own lusts, and He did not say that they would do both.

I will go with what Jesus said.

 

[Reformed1689]

Everything that Jesus ever did and said was perfect in every way. He did not say in John 8:44 that those people would do their own lusts, and He did not say that they would do both.

I will go with what Jesus said.

How does that change what Jesus said? It doesn't. What it DOES do, however, is ignore what other Scriptures say that clearly state it is our own will as well.