He does what he will and can change his will freewill by being saved. It's called freewill because man is in control of his own destiny
MB
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Are Unbelievers Free Agents Who Do Their Own Will Whenever They Want?
- Thread starter Scripture More Accurately
- Start date
MB
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
So when sex traffickers force small children to have immoral relations a dozen or more times every day, are you going to say that the children who do that every day are doing their own will, the will of the sex traffickers, or both?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
That's not an equivalent argument.
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Why is it not?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
The kids are being forced to do something against their will. That's not the same thing as wills being in alignment.
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Do you really think that people who are snared by the devil want to be snared by him and to be taken captive by him at his will?
Do you really think that such people who are taken captive by the devil are still not forced by him to do his will once they are his captives?
If you do, you must think that those people still can resist doing the devil's will if they choose to do so even though they are his captives and that they can set themselves free of their own choosing whenever they want to be freed.
That's not what 2 Tim. 2:25-26 says:
2 Tim. 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
The text says that such people can only recover themselves if God chooses to grant them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth. Otherwise, they will remain captives to the devil and cannot set themselves free.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
You are pushing the "will of the Devil" hard. Allow me to attempt to set a guardrail at the other extreme.
Are you claiming that the unsaved are robots to the will of the Devil and not responsible for their actions?
Is God punishing the wrong creature?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Who does Satan force and how does he do it?
Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?" [Genesis 3:1 NKJV]
And the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate." [Genesis3:13 NKJV]
And the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate." [Genesis3:13 NKJV]
- Satan lies and deceives.
- People choose to listen and sin.
You see it that way because of your false indoctrination. Paul wrote;
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
If we first trust in Christ then we made a decision to do just that.
MB
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Think under their sin natures, so would be free to do as they desire, just limited to what they will be able to desire to do!
As per your usual you see through a dark Glass not knowing what you see.
MB
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
What do you think The Lord thinks about your statement David. Do you believe that personal insults are necessary. God's word tell us to love one another not be spitefull.
MB
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
]
Having said those things, multiple Scriptural statements demand explanation and careful integration.
No, they are not robots. They are responsible for their actions. No, God is not punishing the wrong creature.
Having said those things, multiple Scriptural statements demand explanation and careful integration.
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Scripture says that there are people who are captives of Satan. It does not specify who those people are. Being a captive of Satan has to mean something, and we must account for this revelation from God.
In addition, demon-possessed people are people who are controlled by demons. Any sinful acts that they perform are done while they are being controlled by one or more demons.
Are Unbelievers Free Agents Who Do Their Own Will?
[Rom 6:16 KJV] 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
According to Rom 6:16, all of mankind are servants: whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness.
The Spurgeon Library | Free-Will – A Slave
"Free-Will - A Slave
"And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."—John 5:40
This is one of the great guns of the Arminians, mounted upon the top of their walls, and often discharged with terrible noise against the poor Christians called Calvinists. I intend to spike the gun this morning, or, rather, to turn it on the enemy, for it was never theirs; it was never cast at their foundry at all, but was intended to teach the very opposite doctrine to that which they assert. Usually, when the text is taken, the divisions are: First, that man has a will. Secondly, that he is entirely free. Thirdly, that men must make themselves willing to come to Christ, otherwise they will not be saved. Now, we shall have no such divisions; but we will endeavour to take a more calm look at the text; and not, because there happen to be the words "will," or "will not" in it, run away with the conclusion that it teaches the doctrine of free-will. It has already been proved beyond all controversy that free-will is nonsense. Freedom cannot belong to will any more than ponderability can belong to electricity. They are altogether different things. Free agency we may believe in, but free-will is simply ridiculous. The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing. Philosophy and religion both discard at once the very thought of free-will; and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, "If any man doth ascribe aught of salvation, even the very least, to the free-will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright." It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free-will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that he gives both; that he is "Alpha and Omega" in the salvation of men..."
Full text of "Full text of "Martin Luther on the bondage of the will : to the venerable mister Erasmus of Rotterdam, 1525""
Excerpts from the above document
An evident proof this, that Freewill is a downright lie
The truth, however, is, that God has never given Freewill (if by Freewill is meant an uncontrolled will) to any creature.
Freewill is not a matter of the Spirit, or of Christ, but a mere human affair
Freewill, by its own strength, cannot but fall ; and has no power, save to commit sin
Freewill is nothing but Satan s captive packhorse, which cannot have freedom, unless the devil be first of all cast out by the finger of God.
Freewill is nothing but the chiefest enemy of righteousness and of man s salvation ; because it cannot be, but that some amongst these Jews and Gentiles have acted and endeavoured with the uttermost power of Freewill; and yet with this very Freewill have done nothing but wage war against grace.
If the just man lives by faith, he that hath not faith is not just; and, if not just, he is a sinner. If whatsoever be not of faith is sin, whatever is done by mere Freewill is sin ; because Freewill has nothing to do with faith, but is by the supposition perfectly distinct from it : neither has faith any thing to do with Freewill, but has another origin. Whatsoever it doth therefore, not being of faith, is sin. So that Freewill is only sin.
There is no such thing as "FREE" will. All of mankind's words and actions will be judged by God.
Scripture cautions the believer not to be arrogant and commit sin by doing his will. The believer is to preface everything he/she does by saying " If God wills it, I will...
[Jas 4:13-16 ESV] 13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit"-- 14 yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. 15 Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that." 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.
[Rom 6:16 KJV] 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
According to Rom 6:16, all of mankind are servants: whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness.
The Spurgeon Library | Free-Will – A Slave
"Free-Will - A Slave
"And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."—John 5:40
This is one of the great guns of the Arminians, mounted upon the top of their walls, and often discharged with terrible noise against the poor Christians called Calvinists. I intend to spike the gun this morning, or, rather, to turn it on the enemy, for it was never theirs; it was never cast at their foundry at all, but was intended to teach the very opposite doctrine to that which they assert. Usually, when the text is taken, the divisions are: First, that man has a will. Secondly, that he is entirely free. Thirdly, that men must make themselves willing to come to Christ, otherwise they will not be saved. Now, we shall have no such divisions; but we will endeavour to take a more calm look at the text; and not, because there happen to be the words "will," or "will not" in it, run away with the conclusion that it teaches the doctrine of free-will. It has already been proved beyond all controversy that free-will is nonsense. Freedom cannot belong to will any more than ponderability can belong to electricity. They are altogether different things. Free agency we may believe in, but free-will is simply ridiculous. The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing. Philosophy and religion both discard at once the very thought of free-will; and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, "If any man doth ascribe aught of salvation, even the very least, to the free-will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright." It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free-will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that he gives both; that he is "Alpha and Omega" in the salvation of men..."
Full text of "Full text of "Martin Luther on the bondage of the will : to the venerable mister Erasmus of Rotterdam, 1525""
Excerpts from the above document
An evident proof this, that Freewill is a downright lie
The truth, however, is, that God has never given Freewill (if by Freewill is meant an uncontrolled will) to any creature.
Freewill is not a matter of the Spirit, or of Christ, but a mere human affair
Freewill, by its own strength, cannot but fall ; and has no power, save to commit sin
Freewill is nothing but Satan s captive packhorse, which cannot have freedom, unless the devil be first of all cast out by the finger of God.
Freewill is nothing but the chiefest enemy of righteousness and of man s salvation ; because it cannot be, but that some amongst these Jews and Gentiles have acted and endeavoured with the uttermost power of Freewill; and yet with this very Freewill have done nothing but wage war against grace.
If the just man lives by faith, he that hath not faith is not just; and, if not just, he is a sinner. If whatsoever be not of faith is sin, whatever is done by mere Freewill is sin ; because Freewill has nothing to do with faith, but is by the supposition perfectly distinct from it : neither has faith any thing to do with Freewill, but has another origin. Whatsoever it doth therefore, not being of faith, is sin. So that Freewill is only sin.
There is no such thing as "FREE" will. All of mankind's words and actions will be judged by God.
Scripture cautions the believer not to be arrogant and commit sin by doing his will. The believer is to preface everything he/she does by saying " If God wills it, I will...
[Jas 4:13-16 ESV] 13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit"-- 14 yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. 15 Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that." 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I agree.
Have you considered the implications of Romans 1 on this topic?