Are Unbelievers Free Agents Who Do Their Own Will Whenever They Want?

[Scripture More Accurately]

I agree.

Have you considered the implications of Romans 1 on this topic?

Yes. That passage, however, does not speak directly to the matter of the relationship between Satan and unbelievers, etc.

 

[atpollard]

No, they are not robots. They are responsible for their actions. No, God is not punishing the wrong creature.

Then there are limits to the control that Satan exercises over the mass of unsaved humanity. I believe that Genesis 3 perfectly illustrates the relationship between man and Satan. Satan entices and urges man to sin, and man is happy to oblige.

Scripture says that there are people who are captives of Satan. It does not specify who those people are. Being a captive of Satan has to mean something, and we must account for this revelation from God.

Romans 1 starts out with men who simply refuse to give God the honor due to Him as God. It ends with those same men given over “to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; [they are] whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.”

Just as in the parable of the sower, there were good and bad soils for the steel of the word of God to take root in ... so the “debased mind” of the later state of those in Romans 1 is a very fertile soil for Satan and his authority to take root in.

 

[Dave G]

Are unbelievers free agents who do their own will or are they under the authority of the devil to do his will unless God intervenes in their lives?

I voted # 3, both.

" wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." ( Ephesians 2:2-3 ).

" This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness." ( Ephesians 4:17-19 ).

 

[Reformed1689]

Yes. That passage, however, does not speak directly to the matter of the relationship between Satan and unbelievers, etc.

That's why I say it is a both/and not either/or..

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

That's why I say it is a both/and not either/or..

This view is not true for those who are possessed by demons so it cannot be the correct comprehensive understanding. It may be that there isn't one statement that covers all possible cases.

 

[1689Dave]

Paul says in Romans “Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?” Romans 9:21 (KJV 1900)

This suggests that God directly controls all choices of all people, good and bad.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Paul says in Romans “Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?” Romans 9:21 (KJV 1900)

This suggests that God directly controls all choices of all people, good and bad.

God is never the author of sin. He does not make or force anyone to sin. He is never responsible for people's sinful choices.

 

[Reformed1689]

This suggests that God directly controls all choices of all people, good and bad.

That's not even the Calvinist viewpoint Dave and certainly not the 1689 view.

 

[1689Dave]

God is never the author of sin. He does not make or force anyone to sin. He is never responsible for people's sinful choices.

This is simply refuted. Here's an example;

“And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” 1 Kings 22:20–23 (KJV 1900)

Why pray "lead us not into temptation"? if God does not do this?

 

[1689Dave]

That's not even the Calvinist viewpoint Dave and certainly not the 1689 view.

It's Paul's claim. Creeds are good but subject to the level of learning of the authors. Why pray "lead us not into temptation" if sin isn't part of God's decree?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

This is simply refuted. Here's an example;

“And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” 1 Kings 22:20–23 (KJV 1900)

Why pray "lead us not into temptation"? if God does not do this?

This passage does not refute what I said. God asked for a spirit who would volunteer to lead Ahab to his ruin. God did not compel that spirit to do what it did.

 

[1689Dave]

This passage does not refute what I said. God asked for a spirit who would volunteer to lead Ahab to his ruin. God did not compel that spirit to do what it did.

How can God not be involved since he solicited evil spirits to deceive Ahab?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

It's Paul's claim. Creeds are good but subject to the level of learning of the authors. Why pray "lead us not into temptation" if sin isn't part of God's decree?

No, Paul's claim is not that God makes people and demons to sin. You have mishandled Scripture by saying that it suggests something that it does not.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

How can God not be involved since he solicited evil spirits to deceive Ahab?

I did not say that He was not involved. He did not make that spirit do what it did. The spirit chose on its own to volunteer to do what it did.

 

[1689Dave]

I did not say that He was not involved. He did not make that spirit do what it did. The spirit chose on its own to volunteer to do what it did.

It says God works ALL Things after the counsel of his own will. Face it. Accept reality.

 

[1689Dave]

No, Paul's claim is not that God makes people and demons to sin. You have mishandled Scripture by saying that it suggests something that it does not.

You need more study.

 

[atpollard]

@1689Dave
Could I ask what church you attend?
(Not the exact church, but the 'flavor' of Baptist)
I only ask because your views are clearly NOT the traditional "Southern Baptist" understanding and I was wondering if they are typical of some other group of Baptists.

 

[Reformed1689]

This view is not true for those who are possessed by demons so it cannot be the correct comprehensive understanding. It may be that there isn't one statement that covers all possible cases.

We are talking in generalities of the nature and condition of the unbeliever, or do you believe every unbeliever is possessed by a demon?

 

[Reformed1689]

How can God not be involved since he solicited evil spirits to deceive Ahab?

Where does it say he solicited?

 

[Reformed1689]

It's Paul's claim. Creeds are good but subject to the level of learning of the authors. Why pray "lead us not into temptation" if sin isn't part of God's decree?

What about James 1:13