A Fresh Blossom on the TULIP

[percho]

Just a clarification, is the faith God credits as righteousness obedience (works) or is it trust in the One who justifies the ungodly? Romans 4:5

Galatians 2:16 (NET)
yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

YLT Gal 2:16 having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.'
YLT Rom 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.

Do those two verses state that righteous and or justified is relative, through, the obedience of One / the faith of Jesus Christ (One) ?

YLT Rom 5:9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;

Righteous in his blood. Does in his blood mean by his death? Isn't the obedience of verse 19 the obedience unto death even the death of the cross? The faith of Jesus Christ is relative to when he died. That is when, obedience of faith took place.

That is what is imputed to the first-fruit of the Spirit and or any other fruit God may choose. They are declared righteous.

Romans 8:23 Acts 15.

I believe the only part we have in this is after having been given the Spirit is to walk in the Spirit. Which is not easy for the flesh wars against it.

IMHO

 

[Humble Disciple]

It is time to proclaim the TULIP of Scripture.

It's perhaps no secret to anyone that I'm a great admirer of John Calvin who, like Martin Luther, risked his own life to promote the great scriptural truth of salvation by faith alone through grace alone.

I'm going to demonstrate, based on John Calvin's own words, that John Calvin was not a Calvinist.

According to modern-day Calvinists, the five points of Calvinism are an unbroken chain, and if one link is proven to be untrue, then the entire system fails.

As we can see, based on Calvin's own words, he, in the very least, rejected the doctrine of limited atonement:

How Calvinistic was John Calvin? What did he teach concerning the extent of the atonement? Let us ponder his own words:

Isaiah 53:12- "I approve of the ordinary reading, that He alone bore the punishment of many, because on Him was laid the guilt of the whole world. It is evident from other passages, and especially from the fifth chapter of the Epistle to the Romans, that manysometimes denotes all."
Mark 14:24- "The word many does not mean a part of the world only, but the whole human race." In other words, Christ’s blood was shed for the whole human race.
Matthew 20:28- "‘Many’ is used, not for a definite number, but for a large number, in that He sets Himself over against all others. And this is its meaning also in Rom. 5:15, where Paul is not talking of a part of mankind but of the whole human race."
John 1:29- "And when he says the sin OF THE WORLD, He extends this favour indiscriminately to the whole human race....all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God and need to be reconciled to Him....Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by...faith."
John 3:16- "He has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers....He shows Himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when He invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ."
Romans 5:18- "He makes this favor common to all, because it is propoundable to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all (i.e. in the experience); for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God’s benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive Him."
2 Corinthians 5:19- God "shows Himself to be reconciled to the whole world" and Calvin goes on to say that the "whole world" means "all men without exception."
Galatians 5:12- "It is the will of God that we should seek the salvation of all men without exception, as Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world."
Colossians 1:15- "This redemption was procured by the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of His death all the sins of the world have been expiated."
Hebrews 5:9- "He (the writer of Hebrews) has inserted the universal term ‘to all’ to show that no one is excluded from this salvation who proves to be attentive and obedient to the Gospel of Christ."
Calvin even taught that the lost were purchased by Christ's blood: "It is no small matter to have the souls perish who were bought by the blood of Christ" (The Myster of Godliness, p. 83).
Skip's Lighthouse: CALVIN'S FAVORITE FLOWER WAS NOT A T.U.L.I.P.

The five points of Calvinism weren't written until the Synod of Dort, in response to the five points of Arminianism, and Calvin himself never taught limited atonement.

The acronym "TULIP" did not even originate from Dort, but is, of course, a modern invention in the English language.

While Calvinists are our brothers in Christ, Calvinism is not the only legitimate interpretation of scripture, and accepting or rejecting it has nothing to do with salvation, and Calvin himself was historically not a Calvinist. Instead, he was called by others a Lutheran.

Ecclesiastes 7:18
It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

 

[Van]

YLT Gal 2:16 having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.'

YLT Rom 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.

Do those two verses state that righteous and or justified is relative, through, the obedience of One / the faith of Jesus Christ (One) ?
SNIP

Translation shopping is not a sound bible study practice. Yes, YLT frequently translates "dikaioō" (G1344) as declared righteous but that is a mis-translation. Compare with the NASB. Scripture says believers are "made" righteous, thus to translate as declared results in conflict, but translating as justified results in harmony.

Consider this link:
The Rebel God: Justification means "made righteous"

 

[Van]

SNIP
According to modern-day Calvinists, the five points of Calvinism are an unbroken chain, and if one link is proven to be untrue, then the entire system fails... based on Calvin's own words, he, in the very least, rejected the doctrine of limited atonement:
SNIP
While Calvinists are our brothers in Christ, Calvinism is not the only legitimate interpretation of scripture, and accepting or rejecting it has nothing to do with salvation, and Calvin himself was historically not a Calvinist. SNIP

I do not think anyone claims John Calvin created or supported all of the TULIP doctrines.
No one can say Calvinism is a legitimate interpretation of scripture. That it is why it is defended by ad hominems and obfuscation.
If the T of the TULIP were true it would not be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom.
If the T of the TULIP were true, the people of Matthew 23:13 would not have been entering the kingdom.
If the U of the TULIP were true, God would not have chosen those "rich in faith, those that love God" James 2:5
If the U of the TULIP were true, God would not choose people for salvation through or by reason of faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13
If the L of the TULIP were true, Christ would not lay down His life as a ransom for all, 1 Timothy 2:6
If the L of the TULIP were true, Christ would not have "bought" those heading for swift destruction, 2 Peter 2:1
If the I of the TULIP were true, the people of Matthew 23:13 could not have been prevented from entering the kingdom.
If the I of the TULIP were true, it would not be hard for rich men to enter the kingdom. Matthew 19:23

 

[Van]

Totally in Adam; 1 Corinthians 15:22
Unlimited Reconciliation; 1 Timothy 2:6
Limited Redemption; John 3:16
In Christ;
Protected Faith;

These are the on topic issues. See if anyone cites verses that support these teachings.

 

[AustinC]

Totally in Adam; 1 Corinthians 15:22
Unlimited Reconciliation; 1 Timothy 2:6
Limited Redemption; John 3:16
In Christ;
Protected Faith;

These are the on topic issues. See if anyone cites verses that support these teachings.

You're living on a tropical island of one.

 

[Van]

You're living on a tropical island of one.

Calvinists defend their false doctrine using ad hominems and obfuscation. Behold the off topic Calvinist post!!!!

If the T of the TULIP were true it would not be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom.
If the T of the TULIP were true, the people of Matthew 23:13 would not have been entering the kingdom.
If the U of the TULIP were true, God would not have chosen those "rich in faith, those that love God" James 2:5
If the U of the TULIP were true, God would not choose people for salvation through or by reason of faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13
If the L of the TULIP were true, Christ would not lay down His life as a ransom for all, 1 Timothy 2:6
If the L of the TULIP were true, Christ would not have "bought" those heading for swift destruction, 2 Peter 2:1
If the I of the TULIP were true, the people of Matthew 23:13 could not have been prevented from entering the kingdom.
If the I of the TULIP were true, it would not be hard for rich men to enter the kingdom. Matthew 19:23

 

[MB]

It's perhaps no secret to anyone that I'm a great admirer of John Calvin who, like Martin Luther, risked his own life to promote the great scriptural truth of salvation by faith alone through grace alone.

I'm going to demonstrate, based on John Calvin's own words, that John Calvin was not a Calvinist.

According to modern-day Calvinists, the five points of Calvinism are an unbroken chain, and if one link is proven to be untrue, then the entire system fails.

As we can see, based on Calvin's own words, he, in the very least, rejected the doctrine of limited atonement:



The five points of Calvinism weren't written until the Synod of Dort, in response to the five points of Arminianism, and Calvin himself never taught limited atonement.

The acronym "TULIP" did not even originate from Dort, but is, of course, a modern invention in the English language.

While Calvinists are our brothers in Christ, Calvinism is not the only legitimate interpretation of scripture, and accepting or rejecting it has nothing to do with salvation, and Calvin himself was historically not a Calvinist. Instead, he was called by others a Lutheran.

Ecclesiastes 7:18
It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

Do you believe in the unity of all Christian churches. It sure seems that you do.
MB

 

[AustinC]

Calvinists defend their false doctrine using ad hominems and obfuscation. Behold the off topic Calvinist post!!!!

If the T of the TULIP were true it would not be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom.
If the T of the TULIP were true, the people of Matthew 23:13 would not have been entering the kingdom.
If the U of the TULIP were true, God would not have chosen those "rich in faith, those that love God" James 2:5
If the U of the TULIP were true, God would not choose people for salvation through or by reason of faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13
If the L of the TULIP were true, Christ would not lay down His life as a ransom for all, 1 Timothy 2:6
If the L of the TULIP were true, Christ would not have "bought" those heading for swift destruction, 2 Peter 2:1
If the I of the TULIP were true, the people of Matthew 23:13 could not have been prevented from entering the kingdom.
If the I of the TULIP were true, it would not be hard for rich men to enter the kingdom. Matthew 19:23

Just look around your desert island to see who's with you...

 

[Van]

Just look around your desert island to see who's with you...

See how the false doctrine of Calvinism is defended, folks, they ignore the evidence and use ad hominems.

If the T of the TULIP were true it would not be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom. Luke 18:24
If the T of the TULIP were true, the people of Matthew 23:13 would not have been entering the kingdom.
If the U of the TULIP were true, God would not have chosen those "rich in faith, those that love God" James 2:5
If the U of the TULIP were true, God would not choose people for salvation through or by reason of faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13
If the L of the TULIP were true, Christ would not lay down His life as a ransom for all, 1 Timothy 2:6
If the L of the TULIP were true, Christ would not have "bought" those heading for swift destruction, 2 Peter 2:1
If the I of the TULIP were true, the people of Matthew 23:13 could not have been prevented from entering the kingdom.
If the I of the TULIP were true, it would not be hard for rich men to enter the kingdom. Matthew 19:23

 

[Humble Disciple]

Do you believe in the unity of all Christian churches. It sure seems that you do.
MB

No, not churches that endorse same-sex marriage and reject historical Christian doctrines like the deity of Christ.

 

[Silverhair]

You should quote the entire passage, Van.

Luke 18:18-27

And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I doto inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.’” And he said, “All these I have kept from my youth.” When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” But when he heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich. Jesus, seeing that he had become sad, said, “How difficult it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” Those who heard it said, “Then who can be saved?” But he said, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

Looking at the whole, we see the Sovereignty of God alone in the redemption of all persons. God makes the impossible possible. It is God alone who determines who will be quickened (made alive) and receive the faith that justifies the lawbreaker. The rich man still wanted to enter by works and Jesus showed him that was impossible. The disciples who had been taught works salvation from the religious leaders also were at a loss to understand how one entered the kingdom if even a rich follower of the Mosaic Law couldn't enter. They wonder, correctly, how they could ever attain the Kingdom. Jesus openly tells them they cannot. Only God can make that possible.

Will you receive this truth, Van?

Actually Austin what you have shown is that by your own logic and quote it is Jesus that says works will save you.“One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have {work}and distribute to the poor, {work} and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Now we know that works will not save you so that means that your understanding of this text is questionable at best. What Christ Jesus is saying is that material possessions and obeying rules will not save you. It is only through personal trust/ faith in Christ Jesus that a person can be saved. Only God can save and He saves because you trust in His son Christ Jesus. Just so we are clear here. God saves you after you trust in His son not before you trust in His son.

 

[AustinC]

Actually Austin what you have shown is that by your own logic and quote it is Jesus that says works will save you.“One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have {work}and distribute to the poor, {work} and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Now we know that works will not save you so that means that your understanding of this text is questionable at best. What Christ Jesus is saying is that material possessions and obeying rules will not save you. It is only through personal trust/ faith in Christ Jesus that a person can be saved. Only God can save and He saves because you trust in His son Christ Jesus. Just so we are clear here. God saves you after you trust in His son not before you trust in His son.

Silverhair, you twist scripture like twizzlers twist their licorice sticks.
Since you demand that Jesus teaches salvation by works in that passage, you can exegete just how Jesus teaches works salvation. I await your exegesis.

 

[Silverhair]

It's perhaps no secret to anyone that I'm a great admirer of John Calvin who, like Martin Luther, risked his own life to promote the great scriptural truth of salvation by faith alone through grace alone.

I'm going to demonstrate, based on John Calvin's own words, that John Calvin was not a Calvinist.

According to modern-day Calvinists, the five points of Calvinism are an unbroken chain, and if one link is proven to be untrue, then the entire system fails.

As we can see, based on Calvin's own words, he, in the very least, rejected the doctrine of limited atonement:



The five points of Calvinism weren't written until the Synod of Dort, in response to the five points of Arminianism, and Calvin himself never taught limited atonement.

The acronym "TULIP" did not even originate from Dort, but is, of course, a modern invention in the English language.

While Calvinists are our brothers in Christ, Calvinism is not the only legitimate interpretation of scripture, and accepting or rejecting it has nothing to do with salvation, and Calvin himself was historically not a Calvinist. Instead, he was called by others a Lutheran.

Ecclesiastes 7:18
It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

While you may admire John Calvin and Martin Luther I have to point out that it was those that disagreed with those men that risked their lives. You may feel that they were great men of God and in some respects they were but they said and did things that were not Christian. Saying they were just men of their times does a disservice to the memory of the Christian martyrs and the apostles let alone the life Christ Jesus.

 

[Humble Disciple]

While you may admire John Calvin and Martin Luther I have to point out that it was those that disagreed with those men that risked their lives. You may feel that they were great men of God and in some respects they were but they said and did things that were not Christian. Saying they were just men of their times does a disservice to the memory of the Christian martyrs and the apostles let alone the life Christ Jesus.

There were specific times when Luther and Calvin ran for their lives or had to go into hiding because the Catholic church, with the backing of the government, wanted to kill them.

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair, you twist scripture like twizzlers twist their licorice sticks.
Since you demand that Jesus teaches salvation by works in that passage, you can exegete just how Jesus teaches works salvation. I await your exegesis.

Austin, I was going to say what you said was just dumb but really you are just deluded. You have really got to get some rudimentary reading skills. You are so locked in to the false teaching of Calvinism that you can not see the truth.

{Austin what you have shown is that by your own logic and quote it is Jesus that says works will save you.“One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have {work}and distribute to the poor, {work} and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Now we know that works will not save you so that means that your understanding of this text is questionable at best. What Christ Jesus is saying is that material possessions and obeying rules will not save you. It is only through personal trust/ faith in Christ Jesus that a person can be saved. Only God can save and He saves because you trust in His son Christ Jesus. Just so we are clear here. God saves you after you trust in His son not before you trust in His son.}

Since you must not have read the whole post I put it here between the { } just above. Note the highlighted text in the second paragraph.

Your views are shallow and quite frankly you are rude when you miss quote or twist what people say. But why should anyone be surprised.

 

[Silverhair]

There were specific times when Luther and Calvin ran for their lives or had to go into hiding because the Catholic church, with the backing of the government, wanted to kill them.

I am not questioning if they had times when they feared for their lives. I am just saying I would not put them a pedestal.

 

[MB]

There were specific times when Luther and Calvin ran for their lives or had to go into hiding because the Catholic church, with the backing of the government, wanted to kill them.

There were times when the Catholic Pope wanted to rule all the people and kill the ones who rejected the Catholic doctrines.
MB.

 

[Humble Disciple]

There were times when the Catholic Pope wanted to rule all the people and kill the ones who rejected the Catholic doctrines.
MB.

At the time, because there was no separation of church and state, anyone declared a heretic by the Catholic church could be killed at will. For example, this is why Luther was in hiding while he translated the Bible into German.

 

[Humble Disciple]

I am not questioning if they had times when they feared for their lives. I am just saying I would not put them a pedestal.

How would you define putting them on a pedestal?