Romans 9 and Calvinism

[Guido]

Twice a week I attend a program with groups for people with disorders like schizophrenia, where there is one patient who is a Calvinist, from whose mouth comes always the doctrines of Calvinism, referring for proof to verses like those in Romans 9, which reads:

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The bolded words are the words that he constantly refers to as proof of Calvinism. What do you think is the correct interpretation of this passage?

Thank you.

 

[JD731]

Twice a week I attend a program with groups for people with disorders like schizophrenia, where there is one patient who is a Calvinist, from whose mouth comes always the doctrines of Calvinism, referring for proof to verses like those in Romans 9, which reads:



The bolded words are the words that he constantly refers to as proof of Calvinism. What do you think is the correct interpretation of this passage?

Thank you.

Without elaborating much in this post I will say that Paul is the second man who out of love for his people Israel said from the heart that he would sacrifice himself, one man, for the whole of his people. This was written after some 28 years of NT history had passed. It was 18 years after the first gentiles was saved. The year was 58 AD. The Jews had rejected Jesus Christ, and so Paul was saying this of a rebellious and gainsaying nation.

Romans 9 is in a Jewish context first of all.

Here is the other man who said something similar.

Ex 32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin — ; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Both these men were typical of Jesus Christ in their ministries. Christ, who did sacrifice himself in the place of this nation and then rose from the dead.

De 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
La 1:21 They have heard that I sigh: [there is] none to comfort me: all mine enemies have heard of my trouble; they are glad that thou hast done [it]: thou wilt bring the day [that] thou hast called, and they shall be like unto me.
Ac 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Ac 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

________________________

Col 1:21 And you (gentiles in context), that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

It is important that one reading this gets the full impact of the words, particularly those I have highlighted. It is a relatively new thing for gentiles to be accepted in the same position as those who are God's covenanted people, the Jews, who were members in the body of Christ first, the gentiles being added later in order to fill up his house because of Israel's refusal to come. Therefore, in verse 26 the word "saints" is a reference to Jewish believers.

Paul was the physical representation of Jesus Christ during the apostolic age, being filled with his Spirit and led in his ministry and suffering for our salvation. Moses represented his physical person before he had the Spirit indwelling him to lead him.

The wisdom given in this KJV is without equal. Colosians was written in AD 60 near the end of the apostolic era.

Lu 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed [is] he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.
16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one [consent] began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.`

Mt 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s (Israel) heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. (the remnant, the few individuals among the many who believed in Christ)
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them].

 

[Marooncat79]

The scripture is very clear although many choose to reject it thereby rejecting the glory of God in salvation

 

[AustinC]

Twice a week I attend a program with groups for people with disorders like schizophrenia, where there is one patient who is a Calvinist, from whose mouth comes always the doctrines of Calvinism, referring for proof to verses like those in Romans 9, which reads:



The bolded words are the words that he constantly refers to as proof of Calvinism. What do you think is the correct interpretation of this passage?

Thank you.

Guido, you would have to read and understand chapters 1-8 first, if you want the full picture.

Summarized:
One is not a Jew by circumcision of the flesh, but by circumcision of the heart.
All humans, both Jew and Gentile willfully choose something other than God. Gentiles choose idols. Jews choose the Law of Moses. Neither route saves.
A person is justified by faith in the shed blood of Jesus for remission of sins. This is true for all.

Romans 8 tells us that God elects and predestined. In Romans 9, Paul tells us that the Israel of God is the children of the promise, which is not all physical Israel, but is a remnant. In Chapter 11 Paul clarifies this further.
In Chapter 9, Paul gives clarity to the election mentioned in Chapter 8. He explains that God chose Isaac, not Ismael, even though both came from Abraham. He digs further to tell us that from Isaac, God chose Jacob rather than Esau. In this choosing, however, Paul takes the pangs to let us know that the choice was made before either child had ever done anything wrong. Paul is destroying any argument that a person merits God's choice by first choosing God (here is where your assertion about God waiting to choose/predestine until after we choose is totally annihilated by Paul).

Instead, Paul clearly tells us that God will have mercy upon whom He wills to have mercy and God will justly condemn those whom He doesn't extend mercy. God is Supreme. God chooses and His choice is both perfect and good. We have no grounds to talk back to God and blame Him because God, in His fairness, condemns the world of sin, yet mercifully redeems whom he wills by paying the ransom for the elect through the work of Jesus on the cross.

Romans 11 clarifies that God chooses wild olive branches to graft in to His Kingdom, yet God also chooses from the original olive tree whose root is Christ Jesus.

Paul makes it clear that God is doing the work. God elects/chooses who is connected to the Root.

This is the whole of Paul's argument in Romans. Go read the whole letter, Guido. It all fits as one.

 

[37818]

Twice a week I attend a program with groups for people with disorders like schizophrenia, where there is one patient who is a Calvinist, from whose mouth comes always the doctrines of Calvinism, referring for proof to verses like those in Romans 9, which reads:

<snip>
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth
<snip>

The bolded words are the words that he constantly refers to as proof of Calvinism. What do you think is the correct interpretation of this passage?

Thank you.

It means exactly what it says. What it does not say is key. What God's sovereign will and His reasons in the lives of the one's He shows mercy or hardens. One error of Calvinism is the notion of "unconditional" election. What is true is man is granted mercy without merit on the person's part. And without merit on the person's part is a condition. And the other thing to remenber God is infinitely good.

 

[Van]

Twice a week I attend a program with groups for people with disorders like schizophrenia, where there is one patient who is a Calvinist, from whose mouth comes always the doctrines of Calvinism, referring for proof to verses like those in Romans 9, which reads:
Romans 9:13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Romans 9:18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
What do you think is the correct interpretation of this passage?
Thank you.

No passage or verse in the entire Bible actually supports four of the five doctrines of the TULIP. Once saved, always saved is a valid biblical doctrine.

An idiom found in scripture is to present greater love for one than for another as love and hate. Next, God can both love someone and hate their sinfulness at the same time. Note God demonstrated His love for us while we were still sinners.
And the fact God does have mercy on some but not on all is not in dispute, thus this fact does not support the TULI of the TULIP.
The fact God hardens those of His choosing is not in dispute, thus this fact does not support the TULI of the TULIP.

God has mercy on those whose faith He credits as righteousness, and places into Christ.
God hardens those of His choosing to facilitate His Redemption plan, thus He harden non-believing Jews in Romans 11 to facilitate spreading the Gospel among the Gentiles.

 

[JD731]

God raised up Paul as the teacher of the gentiles during this 2000 years period of time between the resurrection and second coming of Christ, which is the 5th and 6th millennium of human history. During this time Christ is in heaven seated on his Father's throne, waiting for his kingdom to be given of his Father. Paul's 13 epistles is the explanation of the history that began to unfold immediately after the resurrection of Jesus Christ and continues to this very day. One might know from reading and research that Paul was not converted until 37 AD, seven years after the resurrection. No gentiles were saved until Peter opened the door of faith to us gentiles in the year 40 AD, as recorded in Acts 10 when Peter was sent by God to preach the gospel to gentiles and God baptized gentiles with his Spirit, which means that God poured out his Spirit, like rain from heaven, in such abundance that whosoever will may open their mouths and drink and live eternally and become a member of the NT church of Jesus Christ. The church is his body that he is forming in this age. He has given the Spirit for the members of the family of Israel in Acts 2, ten years earlier.

God is not fashioning a new Israel as some teach, but a new man. The old man is Israel and did not include gentiles. The old man is still around but he is not saved. He, as a man, is reckoned as being dead by God. He is also reckoned as a collective entity and must enter the kingdom in that manner. This means that every Israelite who is living on the earth when Jesus Christ establishes his kingdom must be saved by Jesus Christ and have his Spirit living in them. I did not make that up and I am not guessing about that. The scriptures say that over and over. Romans 9 is in part the explanation of why human history has played out as mysteries. It is because the perfect will of God was for Israel to be saved collectively and his national promises kept in his NT. Since only a very small remnant believed in the beginning, God dealt with them, the small number of the remnant, and since there were just a few, he included the gentiles in to complete a new man that consisted of both Jews and gentiles and promised this new man a heavenly inheritance as not just heirs of Jesus Christ but joint heirs with him. This means the inheritance is not diminished by the inclusion of a multitude and can be accomplished because the church is actually connected to Jesus Christ as the body of a believer is connected to it's head and follows the dictates of the heart. This makes the church a single entity yet composed of many members. The old man, (one man with many members with Abraham as the head) though dead now (separated from God by their sin of unbelief) awaits a resurrection, and God in his mercy will present an end times environment that will persuade them that the only way to survive certain destruction is to trust in the promises of Jesus Christ and he will arise to save them from the persecutor, who is the man of sin, indwelt by Satan. The old man, now saved (because every one left alive of this family is saved), will inherit the land and the kingdom of God on the earth and will rule over the other saved nations of the earth, who will also enter the righteous kingdom of Jesus Christ.

This is the message of the scriptures and what we learn concerning the mysteries of the faith that Paul preached. It is provable if the words of the KJV are believed.

These following verses I will quote will tell the reader that every Israelite must be saved before Christ will return and establish his kingdom. When the church is filled with Jews and gentiles, then God will set the environment that will bring his people willingly to him for physical and spiritual salvation. It is then that he will come and establish his earthly kingdom and his body, the church, will come with him.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (this is spoken to a representative of Jewish leadership and the long view is referencing Israel)

Here is the time Israel was baptized with the Spirit from God in heaven.

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (the key to understanding this verse is underlined and bolded by me)

Ac 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did [it], as [did] also your rulers.
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, [that] every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (Jew and gentile) one new man, [so] making peace;

The mystery of Christ revealed in a nutshell verse.

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

The purpose of God is so clearly stated, explained, and demonstrated that those who have owned a copy of the scriptures and yet have missed it because they are imprisoned by isms will be ashamed in the next world.

 

[Dave G]

The bolded words are the words that he constantly refers to as proof of Calvinism. What do you think is the correct interpretation of this passage?

That's been the subject of much discussion, debate, hard words and even harder feelings over many centuries now.
My advice is to read through what so called "Calvinists" say about it, and what others say about it.
There are so many books and sermons on the subject,
I don't even know where to start.

As for myself, all I can tell you is that when I first read the words on the page, I didn't need anyone to tell me what they thought they meant...
I already knew what they meant without having to ask someone.
No books about theology were consulted, and no internet searches were made for me to figure it all out;

Though I will tell you that putting all the pieces together properly took a fair amount of time,
I've never questioned a single word of what Romans 9 has to say, and I've always believed the very words for what they said.


My friend, the fact is that believing and understanding the Scriptures for the child of God comes with time and effort, and no one can get very far with it outside of being saved and indwelt with the Holy Ghost ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, 1 John 2:20-27 ).

Over-riding my advice above about comparing "Calvinist" and "non-Calvinist" articles and books with one another,
I would highly suggest studying His words alone and without commentary, for yourself.
With respect to the book of Romans, start in chapter 1 and go to the end.
Read other books of the Bible and come back to Romans and see if your understanding of it clears up over time in all of His word.

Do your best not to get side-tracked into "systematic theologies" and the teachings of men, and simply read and believe the words for what they say.
As His people, He has promised that what He has preserved is and was for our learning, that we, through patience and comfort of the Scriptures may have hope ( Romans 15:4 ).


May God bless you greatly in your ongoing studies.

 

[thomas15]

Romans 5:6 "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly."

Question: was Esau of the ungodly? If yes, then Christ died for him. If "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16) If this is true then there has to be a better explanation then what is being offered by the Calvinist. May I suggest that it is Esau's sin, his wanting to glorify himself instead of God that offends God and it is that lifestyle God hates.

May I suggest that salvation is offered to those who trust in the risen Christ not the self appointed members of an exclusive club. Some theological schools of thought have made the very simple quite complex.

 

[Iconoclast]

Romans 5:6 "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly."

Question: was Esau of the ungodly? If yes, then Christ died for him. If "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16) If this is true then there has to be a better explanation then what is being offered by the Calvinist. May I suggest that it is Esau's sin, his wanting to glorify himself instead of God that offends God and it is that lifestyle God hates.

May I suggest that salvation is offered to those who trust in the risen Christ not the self appointed members of an exclusive club. Some theological schools of thought have made the very simple quite complex.

The context are those who are elect believers In Christ;


5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

So thomas 15 tries to mislead away from the truth here. plain and simple.
The justified people were ungodly before they were justified.
When people are embittered against the truth, they cannot help but resist it at every point, but are easily exposed by the truth itself.

 

[Van]

The context are those who are elect believers In Christ;
5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

So thomas 15 tries to mislead away from the truth here. plain and simple.
The justified people were ungodly before they were justified.
When people are embittered against the truth, they cannot help but resist it at every point, but are easily exposed by the truth itself.

Is it in dispute that those justified were ungodly before being justified? Nope
Only crippled minds claim to be mind readers (knowing others are "embittered against the truth.")
Romans 5:1-6 demonstrates Calvinism is false...

We gained access by faith into this grace wherein we stand. Thus we were saved by grace "by reason of our faith being credited as righteousness by God, by which we gained access to God's saving grace!!

 

[Dave G]

May I suggest that salvation is offered to those who trust in the risen Christ not the self appointed members of an exclusive club.

You may suggest that, but I see something that you also may not be considering...
That salvation is:

A) Not offered, but promised....and only promised to those that are "in Christ". So, it is very much an "exclusive club" as you put it, no matter which way we turn it over in our minds.
B) To those who do indeed trust in the risen Christ, confess Him with the mouth and believe on Him, from their heart of hearts...deep down and honestly with no reservations.
C) and, they are not self-appointed members of that exclusive club, but are indeed members of an exclusive club ( the "whosoever believeth" ) who have been appointed to that place by God...through no conscious effort of their own.

But if you want to see the Bible teaching that we as sinful men can indeed earn our way into that club,
then it seems no amount of Scripture that says otherwise will convince you.

Respectfully, I know perfectly well that I myself can build all sorts of doctrines off just about anything that God's words says.
I can place verses in a certain order to teach loss of salvation, for example, though the Bible does not teach it and never has.
I can use select pieces of God's word to show that man can thwart His plans, though I know full well that we cannot.

I can even use it to teach that God loves everyone...
right up until I read Psalms 5:5-6, Psalms 11:5 and Romans 9:13 ( as examples ) and realize that He does not.

Some theological schools of thought have made the very simple quite complex.

I agree.

To me they have taken what is so simple ( yet supported by the complexity developed in all of the details ), and misunderstood what it really is....that salvation is by grace alone through faith in Christ alone...not because of our faith, or works, or anything else that a person is or does.

Instead, most schools of theology teach what amounts to works, and place man's efforts ahead of, and defining, God's efforts.
They really do not see and understand that it is all of God, and none of us.

He leaves His people nothing to boast about, and no possibility of ever being able, even if we were willing ( which we are not ), to use anything that we did as having gained us His favor and compassion.
That is why I rejoice in my salvation... because He did it, not me.


I wish you well sir.

 

[MB]

You may suggest that, but I see something that you also may not be considering...
That salvation is:

A) Not offered, but promised....and only promised to those that are "in Christ". So, it is very much an "exclusive club" as you put it, no matter which way we turn it over in our minds.
B) To those who do indeed trust in the risen Christ, confess Him with the mouth and believe on Him, from their heart of hearts...deep down and honestly with no reservations.
C) and, they are not self-appointed members of that exclusive club, but are indeed members of an exclusive club ( the "whosoever believeth" ) who have been appointed to that place by God...through no conscious effort of their own.

But if you want to see the Bible teaching that we as sinful men can indeed earn our way into that club,
then it seems no amount of Scripture that says otherwise will convince you.

Respectfully, I know perfectly well that I myself can build all sorts of doctrines off just about anything that God's words says.
I can place verses in a certain order to teach loss of salvation, for example, though the Bible does not teach it and never has.
I can use select pieces of God's word to show that man can thwart His plans, though I know full well that we cannot.

I can even use it to teach that God loves everyone...
right up until I read Psalms 5:5-6, Psalms 11:5 and Romans 9:13 ( as examples ) and realize that He does not.

I agree.

To me they have taken what is so simple ( yet supported by the complexity developed in all of the details ), and misunderstood what it really is....that salvation is by grace alone through faith in Christ alone...not because of our faith, or works, or anything else that a person is or does.

Now it your turn to mess it up a little futher. We already know you take scripture and twist it to make it seem to support your view. But your view is so twisted it seems you step on your own toes trying to teach garbage.

Instead, most schools of theology teach what amounts to works, and place man's efforts ahead of, and defining, God's efforts.
They really do not see and understand that it is all of God, and none of us.

So you say yet what you say does not line up with the truth.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house..
It says to believe and you say we can't what a bunch of horse manure.

He leaves His people nothing to boast about, and no possibility of ever being able, even if we were willing ( which we are not ), to use anything that we did as having gained us His favor and compassion.
That is why I rejoice in my salvation... because He did it, not me.

Who says we aren't willing?

I wish you well sir
.

This whole post is is absolute nonsense
MB[/QUOTE]

 

[Dave G]

Now it your turn to mess it up a little futher. We already know you take scripture and twist it to make it seem to support your view. But your view is so twisted it seems you step on your own toes trying to teach garbage.

From your point of view, I imagine that it is twisted, MB.

But I've encouraged you, time and again, to believe the words on the page, no less and no more,
yet it seems that you cannot ( or will not ), for some reason.

So you say yet what you say does not line up with the truth.
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house..
It says to believe and you say we can't what a bunch of horse manure.

God's word doesn't stop at Acts of the Apostles 16:31, MB, but it appears to me that you always do.
That the Philippian jailer came trembling in to the jail cell and asked what he must do to be saved, for example, is not where the Bible, in its entirety, stops.

An example of this is Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ( 3 chapters before ), which plainly tells me why certain Gentiles believed, when all others in the crowd did not...because they were ordained to eternal life.

Frankly, I'm at a loss as to why you keep replying to my posts, and, more importantly, why I keep answering yours...
Hope, I guess, that at some point the words of God will get through to you.

 

[Dave G]

Who says we aren't willing?

God does, in many places.
These are a few of them:

Romans 1:18-32.
Romans 3:10-18.
John 3:19-20.
Psalms 10:1-11.
Psalms 14.
Psalms 53:1-4.

If I may, why do you ask me the same things over and over, accuse me of the same things over and over, and I post to you the Scriptures that answer those accusations over and over, yet you insist that they do not?
Shall I post more, MB?

We've been at this for over 3 years, off and on, and it hasn't done either of us any good for you to keep insisting that I'm wrong and you're right, and for me to keep answering, from God's word, where I see what I see.

It's time that we both stopped trying to convince one another, wouldn't you say?

 

[Dave G]

This whole post is is absolute nonsense

I can see that to you it is, my friend.

But if you'll notice, at least one person didn't think so, and I know from personal contact both inside and outside this forum that he once believed the whole thing very much the same as you seem to...as did I many years ago.
The difference is, we didn't stop where it seems that you are stopping with God's words...at "point of belief", or the "what" of the whole thing.

Yes, I agree with you that the difference between a saved person and a lost person is that the saved person believes on Christ.
But it's the "why" that catches my attention and that I'm more interested in, and Scripture itself goes on to tell us the "how" and the "why" that anyone believes on Christ during the preaching of His words...

Because of His grace and mercy towards a person that results in the new birth, spiritually, and not because they "willed themselves" to do so from a spiritually dead heart and mind.


As always I wish you well, sir, whether or not we agree.

 

[Van]

Romans 5:1-6 demonstrates Calvinism is false...

We gained access by faith into this grace wherein we stand. Thus we were saved by grace "by reason of our faith being credited as righteousness by God, by which we gained access to God's saving grace!!

 

[AustinC]

Van, showing once again that he struggles to understand faith.

The faith we are given by God is credited to us by God's grace and the imputed righteousness of Christ. Paul is very judicious in laying this argument out in the letter to the Romans. It is my hope that Van will one day understand this great truth.

 

[thomas15]

Dave G, covenant theology, which is the predominant thinking here, teaches that there has to be a bit if proof in the life and/or behavior of the believer to prove that he/she is of the elect. This is what covenant theology teaches. Some of those famous theologians, those with extended brain pans and authors of must own best selling books that get many 5 stars in reviews on Amazon, of those persons some require more proof via works than others but there is an acid test out there somewhere. An individual such as the beloved John Piper has a low tolerance for skimpy works and thus is representative of the "exclusive club" I speak of because he believes that he personally has the required and necessary works to be in the club, in-fact a officer in the club and he is also as a bonus able to place on another doubt as to if their works meet the minimum as set forth in the by-laws of their club.

All of this is very good stuff but we are lacking a minimum standard for such behavior. We also lack the ability to see into the minds and hearts of others although I suspect there are some even on this very chit-chat board have this wonderful sign gift. I have seen some of these awesome persons state that if a believer, trusting in the risen Christ stops right there and doesn't believe that they are elect as defined by the reformed covenant crowd then that is unbelief enough to proclaim that believer actually is in-fact unsaved. Of course there are others that kind of look the other way, let it slide to a certain degree which is really a nice gesture. When that happens, one sort of gets a half demerit for the day not necessarily a ride on the detention bus.

Covenant theology takes the concept a step further in that it claims the promises made to another void, due to sin and disobedience and graciously awards it to herself. It can do this because once again it is a self appointed member of an exclusive club that doesn't think their sins and disobedience is great enough to trigger another waive of Godly judgement enough to award the promises they claim for themselves to yet a third group of new believers who could use the same line of thinking to elbow the reformed off their exalted position.

If salvation is really truly a free gift then works and behavior really shouldn't matter as it's a free gift from the only being that is able to really keep his promises. That is the question to ponder when considering if Christ died for the ungodly or only the soon to become righteous. How does an individual conceived and born in sin, steeped in bad behavior totally corrupt in all things find a teaching in the Bile that states that God so loved only those few select individuals who speak highly of others of the same thinking, that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him, and more important belongs to a special club of life thinking individuals, those shall have everlasting life? The rest of humanity, God hates and Jesus did not die for.

I suspect but cannot prove it and really don't feel the need to prove it but I think some here who freely proclaim that "for by grace are you saved through faith, this not of yourselves it is a gift of God, not by works so no man should boast" do not really believe the "it is a gift" part. Oh well individual soul liberty.

We say, when it is convenient for our personal theology, that God has in the Bible certain precepts which give us a picture into the mind of God, to help us understand things that are not specifically taught in the Scriptures. God tells us somewhere in the bowels of His word that He cause the rain to fall on the just and unjust that he will bless the line of Ishmael although He hates the sin of Ishmael and for that matter the sins of all persons, believers and unbelievers. I think I can say say with a straight face that God loved Esau the man, because he certainly blessed him, and that Jesus died for the sins of Esau without taking the position that Esau and anyone else that isn't washed in the blood of the lamb will certainly see nothing but eternal condemnation. I think I can do that but I don't have an extended brain pan.

 

[AustinC]

Dave G, covenant theology, which is the predominant thinking here, teaches that there has to be a bit if proof in the life and/or behavior of the believer to prove that he/she is of the elect. This is what covenant theology teaches. Some of those famous theologians, those with extended brain pans and authors of must own best selling books that get many 5 stars in reviews on Amazon, of those persons some require more proof via works than others but there is an acid test out there somewhere. An individual such as the beloved John Piper has a low tolerance for skimpy works and thus is representative of the "exclusive club" I speak of because he believes that he personally has the required and necessary works to be in the club, in-fact a officer in the club and he is also as a bonus able to place on another doubt as to if their works meet the minimum as set forth in the by-laws of their club.

All of this is very good stuff but we are lacking a minimum standard for such behavior. We also lack the ability to see into the minds and hearts of others although I suspect there are some even on this very chit-chat board have this wonderful sign gift. I have seen some of these awesome persons state that if a believer, trusting in the risen Christ stops right there and doesn't believe that they are elect as defined by the reformed covenant crowd then that is unbelief enough to proclaim that believer actually is in-fact unsaved. Of course there are others that kind of look the other way, let it slide to a certain degree which is really a nice gesture. When that happens, one sort of gets a half demerit for the day not necessarily a ride on the detention bus.

Covenant theology takes the concept a step further in that it claims the promises made to another void, due to sin and disobedience and graciously awards it to herself. It can do this because once again it is a self appointed member of an exclusive club that doesn't think their sins and disobedience is great enough to trigger another waive of Godly judgement enough to award the promises they claim for themselves to yet a third group of new believers who could use the same line of thinking to elbow the reformed off their exalted position.

If salvation is really truly a free gift then works and behavior really shouldn't matter as it's a free gift from the only being that is able to really keep his promises. That is the question to ponder when considering if Christ died for the ungodly or only the soon to become righteous. How does an individual conceived and born in sin, steeped in bad behavior totally corrupt in all things find a teaching in the Bile that states that God so loved only those few select individuals who speak highly of others of the same thinking, that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him, and more important belongs to a special club of life thinking individuals, those shall have everlasting life? The rest of humanity, God hates and Jesus did not die for.

I suspect but cannot prove it and really don't feel the need to prove it but I think some here who freely proclaim that "for by grace are you saved through faith, this not of yourselves it is a gift of God, not by works so no man should boast" do not really believe the "it is a gift" part. Oh well individual soul liberty.

We say, when it is convenient for our personal theology, that God has in the Bible certain precepts which give us a picture into the mind of God, to help us understand things that are not specifically taught in the Scriptures. God tells us somewhere in the bowels of His word that He cause the rain to fall on the just and unjust that he will bless the line of Ishmael although He hates the sin of Ishmael and for that matter the sins of all persons, believers and unbelievers. I think I can say say with a straight face that God loved Esau the man, because he certainly blessed him, and that Jesus died for the sins of Esau without taking the position that Esau and anyone else that isn't washed in the blood of the lamb will certainly see nothing but eternal condemnation. I think I can do that but I don't have an extended brain pan.

I note you provide zero scripture.
thomas15, what does God say?