Featured Assorted Postmillennialism, articles, sermons.

John Owen On the New Heaven and New Earth-Preterism, new heaven and new earth, and eschatology and Preterist soteriology; Preterism and Preterist eschatology, rapture and prophecy from a preterist perspective

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  The apostle makes a distribution of the world into heaven and earth, and saith they were destroyed with water, and perished. We know that neither the fabric nor substance of the one or other was destroyed, but only men that liveth on the earth; and the apostle tells us (ver. 7) of the heaven and earth that were then, and were destroyed by water, distinct from the heavens and the earth that were now, and were to be consumed by fire; and yet as to the visible fabric of heaven and earth they were the same both before the flood and in the apostle's time, and continue so to this day; when yet it is certain that the heavens and earth, whereof he spake, were to be destroyed and consumed by fire in that generation. We must, then, for the clearing of our foundation a little, consider what the apostle intends by the heavens and the earth in these two places.
  ' 1. It is certain that what the apostle intends by the world, with its heaven, and earth (vers. 5, 6), which was destroyed ; the same, or some-what of that kind, he intends by the heavens and the earth that were to be consumed and destroyed by fire (ver. 7) ; otherwise there would be no coherence in the apostle's discourse, nor any kind of argument, but a mere fallacy of words.
  ' 2. It is certain that by the flood, the world, or the fabric of heaven and earth, was not destroyed, but only the inhabitants of the world; and therefore the destruction intimated to succeed by fire is not of the substance of the heavens and the earth, which shall not be consumed until the last day, but of person or men living in the world.
  '3. Then we must consider in what sense men living in the world are said to be the world, and the heavens and earth of it. I shall only insist on one instance to this purpose among many that may be produced: Isa. li. 15, 16. The time when the work here mentioned, of planting the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth, was performed by God was when He divided the sea (ver. 15) and gave the law (ver. 16), and said to Zion, Thou art my people; that is, when He took the children of Israel out of Egypt, and formed them in the wilderness into a church and state; then He planted the heavens and laid the foundation of the earth: that is, brought forth order, and government, and beauty from the confusion wherein before they were. This is the planting of the heavens and laying the foundation of the earth in the world. And since it is that when mention is made of the destruction of a state and government, it is in that languaue which seems to set forth the end of the world. So Isa. xxxiv. 4, which is yet but the destruction of the state of Edom. The like also is affirmed of the Roman Empire (Rev. vi. 14), which the Jews constantly affirm to be intended by Edom in the prophets. And in our Saviour Christ's prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem (Matt. xxiv.) He sets it out by expressions of the same importance. It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.
  ' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state; for which I shall offer these two reasons, of many that might be insisted on from the text:-
  '(1.) Because whatever is here mentioned was to have its peculiar influence on the men of that generation. He speaks of that wherein both the profane scoffers and those scoffed at were concerned, and that as Jews, some of them believing, others opposing, the faith. Now there was no particular concernment of that generation, nor in that sin, nor in that scoffing, as to the day of judment in general ; but there was a peculiar relief for the one and a peculiar dread for the other at hand, in the destruction of the Jewish nation ; and, besides, an ample testimony both to the one and the other of the power and dominion of tile Lord Jesus Christ, which was the thing in question between them.
  '(2.) Peter tells them, that after the destruction and judgment that he speaks of (vers. 7-13), " We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth,' etc. They had this expectation. But what is that promise? Where may we find it? Why, we have it in the very words and letter, Isa. lxv. 17. Now, when shall this be that God shall create these new heavens and new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness? Saith Peter, " It shall be after the coming of the Lord, after that judgment and destruction of ungodly men, who obey not the gospel, that I foretell." But now it is evident from this place of Isaiah, with chap. lxvi. 21, 22, that this is a prophecy of Gospel times only; and that the planting of these new heavens is nothing but the creation of Gospel ordinances to endure for ever. The same thing is so expressed Heb. xii. 26-28.
  ' This being the design of the place, I shall not insist longer on the context, but briefly open the words proposed, and fix upon the truth continued in them.
  'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly.
  'There is no outward constitution nor frame of things in government or nations, but it is subject to a dissolution, and may receive it, and that in a way of judgment. If any might plead exemption, that, on many accounts, of which the apostle was discoursing in prophetical terms (for it was not yet time to speak it openly to all) might interpose for its share.'*

 

Obviously, on the Last Day, the eternal state becomes a full reality. That is not in question.

Now are you trying to interact with any particular link?

In other words...if you are holding to Historic premill, have you seen something in any of these links that you can offer scriptural correction on, or perhaps a Link from Ladd, to support your view that postmill is not correct?

 

The New Heaven and New Earth - The Gospel Coalition

“Heaven” vs. “The New Heavens and New Earth”
Many Christians use the term “heaven” to refer to the state of eternal bliss that those who trust in Christ for salvation will experience at the resurrection of the dead. “Hell,” on the other hand, is the place of eternal torment reserved for those who reject Christ in this life. Although these basic categories get at an important biblical truth – namely, that God on the last day will judge the living and the dead (Dan 12; Rev 20:11–15) – there is still some confusion regarding exactly what the states of the righteous and unrighteous are once God’s judgment has been given. This is because many times Christians equate “heaven” and “hell” with “what happens when we die” rather than “what happens at Jesus’ second coming, the resurrection of the dead, and the final judgment.” These are not the same thing in the Bible, although they are related. In theological terms, the former – what happens when we die – is referred to as the “intermediate state,” while the latter – what happens when Jesus comes back – is referred to as “the new heavens and new earth” (Rev 21:1) or “new creation.”

God’s covenant with Abraham is thus intended to restore God’s creation and reverse the effects of sin, “far as the curse is found.” God’s plan of redemption, both when he gives the protoevangelion in Genesis 3 and when he makes his covenant with Abraham.

The rest of the story of the OT traces both the faith and the failure of Abraham’s family, God’s people, Israel. There is a faithful remnant of God’s people throughout the OT that trusts that God will keep his promises. Israel’s exodus from Egypt, their entrance into the promised land of Canaan, their coronation of king David, their Solomonic Temple, and a host of other events, people, and places, are seen as fulfillments of God’s promises. But these turn out to be merely shadows, because even though Israel is fruitful and multiplies, cultivates and keeps the land (and the center of the land, the Temple), and rules through first their judges and then their kings, they do not ever fulfill the fourth task God gave Adam and Eve: obedience to God’s Word.
Like Adam and Eve, they therefore do not rule well, permitting God’s enemies to continue to dwell in the land.

They do not cultivate well, bringing strange fire into the tabernacle and worshiping with idols.

They do not multiply well, disobeying God’s instructions regarding intermarriage with the idol-worshipers in the land.

Ultimately, like Adam and Eve, this results in their exile from the land. At the end of the OT, Israel is still in exile, they are still waiting for the seed of woman to crush the serpent’s head, and they are still waiting for a new Adam to reverse the curse and restore what was lost in the Fall. They are still waiting for a new creation, a new heavens and new earth (e.g. the new creation imagery in Isaiah 11, 65; and Hosea 14:5–8, among other passages).

 

pt2;
What Jesus inaugurates at his first coming he consummates at his return. Now not only he is raised from the dead, but he raises all the dead at the final judgment and brings those who have trusted in him with him to dwell with him in the new heavens and new earth. God’s people dwell with God in God’s place, finally and eternally, through the finished work of Jesus. They rule with Jesus over the land he has purchased for them, namely the entirety of the new creation. He has been fruitful and multiplied them to the point that they fill the entire new heavens and new earth (see the description of the New Jerusalem in Rev 21:9ff.). And they care for this restored with Jesus, the place he has renewed through removing all the effects of sin (Rev 21:4) and which now bears good fruit and brings forth living water for eternity (Rev 21:1–6). The new heavens and new earth is thus the culmination of the story of God’s saving work that began in Gen 3:15, was foreshadowed in the life of Israel, and was inaugurated and completed in Christ’s first coming.

Last Things
The new heavens and new earth is dogmatically located under the doctrine of eschatology. Systematic issues related to the new heavens and new earth are eternal judgment, the relation of the old creation to the new creation, and the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. With respect to judgment, the new heavens and new earth is the eternal dwelling place of those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life (Rev 20:11–15), who are also referred to as the Bride and the inhabitants of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:1–2). But the description of the new heavens and new earth (Rev 21:1–22:6), as well as the final judgment scene of Rev 20:7–15, also includes references to the eternal dwelling place of those whose names are not written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, a place called the lake of fire (Rev 21:8). Dogmatically speaking, the topic of the new heavens and new earth is, then, related to Christ’s final acts of judgment and salvation and thus to both Christology and soteriology.

Finally, the topic of the new heavens and new earth is associated with the relation between the old and new covenants, both with respect to when the promises of Israel are fulfilled and to whether or not the new creation renews the old creation or completely replaces it. Both of these issues essentially come down to whether one affirms a more dispensational or a more covenantal understanding of how the old and new covenants relate.

 

Chris Culver sermon notes;

It is in relation to the concept of a redemptive kingdom that the doctrine of the Day of the Lord emerged in the prophets. Yahweh would indeed come and establish His kingdom through a great redemptive act, but, consistent with the meaning of redemption, that act would involve judgment and deliverance. The Lord was going to usher in His kingdom by defeating the enemies who had taken His sons captive, thereby liberating them and taking them to Himself to be with Him in His dwelling place. The first Exodus was to find its own fulfillment in a second Exodus (Isaiah 51:1-11; cf. 11:1-16).

The doctrine of the Servant of Yahweh is evident elsewhere in the Old Testament – particularly in relation to the promised Davidic seed (ref. Ezekiel 34:23-24, 37:24-25; Zechariah 3:8; cf. also Haggai 2:20-23), but Isaiah’s treatment stands alone in its magnitude and scope. His prophecy provides essential content for bringing together the various aspects of Old Testament messianism. - The prophets revealed a Messiah who would be the Son of David and Melchizedekian high priest. This One would also be the tangible manifestation of Yahweh in His coming to establish His kingdom in the earth.

Moreover, both the prophets and history itself indicated that this kingdom was to be the product of Yahweh’s work of redemption in the great and awesome Day of the Lord (cf. Isaiah 3:1-4:6; Joel 3:9-21; Zephaniah 1:1-18, 3:1-20; Malachi 4:5-6; etc.).


. Israel was Yahweh’s servant (Isaiah 41:8-9, 44:1-2, 21), set apart as His disciple to learn of Him through devoted faithfulness to the covenant by which He revealed Himself (42:18-24). By that life of faithfulness, in turn, the servant-son would bear witness to the divine Father to the surrounding nations (Isaiah 43:10-15, 44:6-8). These designations show that the concept “Israel” speaks to man as truly man – man as he exists in intimate communion with God as Father and communicates His presence and lordship throughout His creation.


Israel was son, servant, disciple and witness, but the nation failed to fulfill its identity in every way. Israel could not be Israel, and its failure brought the Abrahamic promise (and the Edenic oath behind it) into jeopardy. If God were to fulfill His oath of restoration and reconciliation, a new Israel was needed, as this is precisely what Isaiah promised (49:1ff).

 

pt2.
Amillenial believers are like cousins to Postmillennial believers, as much of what Pastor Culver offers are parallel to Postmill thought, just he makes a distinction between the spiritual, and physical application of what it means that the kingdom has been inaugurated.

Accordingly, Isaiah presented the Servant-Israel as the point of divinehuman reconciliation effected through priestly mediation (Isaiah 53). The true Servant would not only fulfill Israel’s identity and role by His own covenant fidelity, He would fulfill the covenant prescription of vicarious righteousness. Just as prescribed sacrifices preserved the covenant union between Yahweh and Israel, so the Servant, by the sacrifice of Himself, would secure the union between Creator-Father and man, the image-son.

b. The Servant’s priestly role as Yahweh’s true Israel is profound in itself, but all the more so in the light of the fact that He is also the presence of Yahweh as Israel’s Redeemer (Isaiah 59:15-20). In the Suffering Servant, the Lord Himself would bear the guilt of His people and satisfy the demands of justice against them.

From the beginning God indicated that His kingdom was to be a redemptive kingdom; Yahweh, the great King, would establish it through a spectacular work of judgment, deliverance, and restoration.

And as had been the case with its Israelite predecessor, sacrifice was to provide the redemptive foundation for the final kingdom. Though only indirectly implied,
the future second Exodus predicted by Isaiah (ref. again 51:9-11) would also stand upon a second Passover as the instrument of redemption. -

At the same time, the Servant’s unique nature introduced a whole new dimension into the redemptive circumstance. This one would fulfill in Himself the twin roles of priest and sacrifice,
but He would do so as Yahweh the Redeemer as well as the new Israel.

Satisfying the obligations of both parties, the Servant effectively embodied the covenant in Himself (42:1-7, 49:8-9). He would be Israel on behalf of Israel, but as the Lord Redeemer He would accomplish Yahweh’s purpose to redeem and recover to Himself all things (cf. Isaiah 49:5-6, 54:1-17; also Ephesians 1:7-10, 2:11-3:12; Colossians 1:19-20).

 

in what part?

 

We are not interested in your stories and speculations.
Interact with any post line by line.

 

So the Kingdom is just an idea?
It has no effect at all?

 

Roby,
like the op requested...I would like to have you reply to any link here, line by line, and work through it, then show exactly where they are in error.
you can use multiple quotes,to respond to what is offered on this thread.

 

Give me a quote from Ladd that you think illustrates this, and why and how it manifests itself.
Your post is not informing us on anything.
For example, I can tweet out:
Eternity is a long time.
Water is wet.
The Sun is hot.
You and Roby are not interacting with the actual thread, that is, what is posted.
reply line by line, show where the scripture says something different than what they say.

 

Why does Dr. Gentry say it is Nero?
What does he base his idea on?
How does he link Nero to 6 hundred, sixty, and six

 

Most of us have been taught all the other ideas that premill offers.
I was thinking of many sermons that were well intentioned.
They say Jesus could appear at any moment and yet how would that happen without a "rebuilt physical temple" for an anti christ to march into it?
I heard the other day that Tel Aviv, is the number one destination for sodomites to travel to, in the world.