Flaws of Calvinism

[Marooncat79]

Ole Nick was being drawn by the Spirit of God

 

[37818]

I think the point is that no one seeks God in a way that would really result in coming to Christ in saving faith. Nicodemus i a good example because we have it in John 3. He obviously was seeking God in a sense but had absolutely no understanding of what he needed. And Jesus flat out told him that he had to be born again. So Nicodemus, probably an example of naturalOk man at his absolute best, educated in the scriptures, was totally ineffective by himself in truly finding God. Salvation really is all of God.

You might look at this. What Jesus told him, in John 3:3, was essentially what Jesus said in another way, as in Mark 10:15. So Nicodemus' question, in John 3:4 fits both statements which Jesus said. This is very important understand.

 

[DaveXR650]

I don't think it's the same thing at all and that isn't my point anyway. The question was about whether anyone on their own seeks after God. My point is that spiritual inability does not mean that every single individual hates Jesus with all his heart before he is saved. But no man has what it takes in himself to really come to Christ in faith. We are capable on our own of pursuing virtue, having morals, being honorable in our dealings with other men, or desiring knowledge of God or religion. What none of us can do on our own is seek after Christ in a saving way. Now Marooncat above is saying that Nicodemus was being drawn by the Spirit of God. Probably true, but since he was talking to Jesus directly that's not the point either. The point is Nicodemus, in my opinion a good man at his natural best had no idea how a man could really approach God. Without being born again it is completely foreign to our makeup and cannot be deduced or figured out.

 

[Marooncat79]

Does regeneration necessarily precede conversion?
By Thomas R. Schreiner
Article
03.01.2010
The answer to the question is “yes,” but before explaining why this is so, the terms “regeneration” and “conversion” should be explained briefly.

Regeneration means that one has been born again or born from above (John 3:3, 5, 7, 8). The new birth is the work of God, so that all those who are born again are “born of the Spirit” (John 3:8 ESV here and henceforth). Or, as 1 Pet 1:3 says, it is God who “caused us to be born again to a living hope” (1 Pet 1:3). The means God uses to grant such new life is the gospel, for believers “have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God” (1 Pet 1:23; cf. Jas 1:18). Regeneration or being born again is a supernatural birth. Just as we cannot do anything to be born physically—it just happens to us!—so too we cannot do anything to cause our spiritual rebirth.

Conversion occurs when sinners turn to God in repentance and faith for salvation. Paul describes the conversion of the Thessalonians in 1 Thess 1:9, “For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God.” Sinners are converted when they repent of their sins and turn in faith to Jesus Christ, trusting in him for the forgiveness of their sins on the Day of Judgment.

Paul argues that unbelievers “are dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph 2:1; cf. 2:5). They are under the dominion of the world, the flesh, and the devil (Eph 2:2-3). Every one is born into the world as a son or daughter of Adam (Rom 5:12-19). Therefore, all people enter into this world as slaves of sin (Rom 6:6, 17, 20). Their wills are in bondage to evil, and hence they have no inclination or desire to do what is right or to turn to Jesus Christ. God, however, because of his amazing grace has “made us alive together with Christ” (Eph 2:5). This is Paul’s way of saying that God has regenerated his people (cf. Tit 3:5). He has breathed life into us where there was none previously, and the result of this new life is faith, for faith too is “the gift of God” (Eph 2:8).

Several texts from 1 John demonstrate that regeneration precedes faith. The texts are as follows: “If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him” (1 John 2:29). “No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God” (1 John 3:9). “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7). “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whomever has been born of him” (1 John 5:1).

 

[DaveXR650]

I met Schreiner. He's a super nice guy!

 

[37818]

Conversion occurs when sinners turn to God in repentance and faith for salvation.

Well, regeneration takes place after faith. And of course one has the faith after regeneration. This fact does not prove regeneration precedes faith.

 

[DaveXR650]

Well. You aren't alone in believing that. You might even be in the majority. I just don't think that's the way it works. In my opinion, if the precise order is your only concern I don't even think it's that important. What I do think is important is this: I fear that some people view belief as looking at the claims of the gospel and sitting in a detached way, above it all, so your free will is not affected by anything, and then judging that the gospel is sufficiently worthwhile for you to subscribe to it. That type of "faith" would not be saving faith.

 

[Iconoclast]

You might look at this. What Jesus told him, in John 3:3, was essentially what Jesus said in another way, as in Mark 10:15. So Nicodemus' question, in John 3:4 fits both statements which Jesus said. This is very important understand.

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

 

[37818]

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Yet what Jesus had said prior to this and the other two quotes included children too young to believe.

 

[Marooncat79]

John 6:44

For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.

that word draw means to “drag”

like a water blister full of water out of a well

 

[Iconoclast]

Yet what Jesus had said prior to this and the other two quotes included children too young to believe.

Your position is a dead-end of an argument, an argument from silence.
Nothing is going to contradict jn. 3:8..8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[Iconoclast]

John 6:44

For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.

that word draw means to “drag”

like a water blister full of water out of a well

The teaching is that is effectual.

 

[Iconoclast]

Your position is a dead-end of an argument, an argument from silence.
Nothing is going to contradict jn. 3:8..8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

It is everyone born of the Spirit, not people without the saving grace of the Spirit.

 

[37818]

There is a third non-Calvinist and non-Arminian view.

 

[37818]

Your position is a dead-end of an argument, an argument from silence.
Nothing is going to contradict jn. 3:8..8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

No. My position on the matter of the new birth is not affected by this truth. The fact that you think it does means you do not understand my view.

 

[37818]

The point of the terminology of unconditional election is a flaw of Calvinism which it on the whole it is unable to change. Election is arguably unmerited on the part of those chosen by God.

This one issue alone leaves Calvinism always flawed.

 

[DaveXR650]

You know, it's funny because I always considered the "U" to be the easiest and most obvious to understand. It is a reality that we can observe that not everyone gets anything like an equal chance at hearing the gospel and that really bothered me before I heard of the Calvinistic system. It bothered others too as I have seen a missionary literally weep because he could not learn a language quick enough to give the gospel to an elder in a tribe. It just didn't seem fair. Unconditional election (taken with the rest of the system) helps explain that as well as guard against some type of horrible arrogance for those of us who have heard the gospel. And you avoid the "well at least I had sense enough to believe", which I have actually heard people say.

 

[37818]

Unconditional election is unBiblical election. That the election is unmerited is what must be understood. No one can deserve God's gift of salvation by any means.

 

[DaveXR650]

Yes, that's what it means. If you read the Calvinist literature you will find that that is what they are trying to say. They just had to have something that begins with a U. Unmerited probably would have been OK. Unconditional is better though because it eliminates everything pertaining to us and makes it clear that it is according to God.

 

[Marooncat79]

I met Schreiner. He's a super nice guy!

I know several at SBTS, but he is not one of them