Not an either or atonement.

[Brightfame52]

Not at all. The general redemption is essential. As I stated, without the general redemption no one can know to believe they have any part in redemption at all before one believes. In other words one has no redemption for one to believe in. Answer this, before you believed, how would you know you had any part in it? Without the general redemption you have absolutely no way to know Christ died for you.

You may as well just say Christs death was a general atonement, then you would be consistent.

 

[37818]

I did not say that either. It was written to believers in Rome, not non-believers. So we, as Y, can apply it to us as well as we meet the same qualifications, aside from not living in Rome.

How before we have accepted that Christ died for us? Either we understand it includes us or we do not. If a mere reader accepts Romans 5:8 includes all sinners, that is effectively a general redemption view.

 

[37818]

You may as well just say Christs death was a general atonement, then you would be consistent.

Particular redemption is found in the general redemption or Christ didn't secure anyone's redemption. But He did, John 10:15, John 10:27-28. Matthew 22:14.

 

[Reformed1689]

How before we have accepted that Christ died for us? Either we understand it includes us or we do not. If a mere reader accepts Romans 5:8 includes all sinners, that is effectively a general redemption view.

But there is no evidence from the text that it includes all sinners.

 

[37818]

But there is no evidence from the text that it includes all sinners.

The text says of the believers, "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Christ died for said believers before they believed. How is the reader to know it would excluded any sinner? A general redemption is what would be underderstood. That is what I understood on that day I believed and received Christ as my Savior.

 

[JesusFan]

How is this argument different from Classic Arminianism?

• All men are fallen
• God draws all men
• Some men believe.

Are we claiming TWO acts of redemption by God (God gives General Redemption to hear and Particular Redemption granting faith to some) or are we claiming synergism covered with a fig leaf (God gives General Redemption to hear and men choose to exercise their God-given faith)?

Or is the claimed being made here that in the Cross of Christ all indeed have been redeemed, and are saved until and unless they choose to reject their salvation> If so, why even have missions or preaching of the Gospel message then?

 

[JesusFan]

How before we have accepted that Christ died for us? Either we understand it includes us or we do not. If a mere reader accepts Romans 5:8 includes all sinners, that is effectively a general redemption view.

Included all of the sinners that were to be saved by it

 

[37818]

Included all of the sinners that were to be saved by it

Why would.Romans 5:8 exclude anyone? There is nothing in said text to suggest that anyone is excluded.

 

[Reformed1689]

The text says of the believers, "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Christ died for said believers before they believed. How is the reader to know it would excluded any sinner? A general redemption is what would be underderstood. That is what I understood on that day I believed and received Christ as my Savior.

No. It is talking about a specific group of people, not everyone. There is no way to get general redemption from that passage.

 

[37818]

No. It is talking about a specific group of people, not everyone. There is no way to get general redemption from that passage.

How does a person who is not yet saved is know Christ solely died for those who believe from Romans 5:8?

 

[Reformed1689]

How does a person who is not yet saved is know Christ solely died for those who believe from Romans 5:8?

1. If they read in context, not just a single verse, they know who the letter is addressed to, believers.
2. How does that even matter? It has literally no bearing on the passage.

 

[37818]

1. If they read in context, not just a single verse, they know who the letter is addressed to, believers.
2. How does that even matter? It has literally no bearing on the passage.

There is nothing anywhere in the New Testament which teaches particular redemption must excluded the general redemption.

My argument is if general redemption was not true none of us today could know Christ died for us. You see, we know Christ died for us because the general redemption is true.

 

[Reformed1689]

My argument is if general redemption was not true none of us today could know Christ died for us. You see, we know Christ died for us because the general redemption is true.

Absurd. The Holy Spirit reveals it.

 

[Brightfame52]

Particular redemption is found in the general redemption or Christ didn't secure anyone's redemption. But He did, John 10:15, John 10:27-28. Matthew 22:14.

You may as well say the Christs redemption is general. Do you believe that there is an aspect of Christs death that is non redemptive ?

 

[37818]

Absurd. The Holy Spirit reveals it.

Yes. And that truth does not disallow the general redemption.

[corrected]

 

[37818]

You may as well say the Christs redemption is general. Do you believe that there is an aspect of Christs death that is non redemptive ?

Yes, for those who refuse the gift. John 3:18. John 3:36. 1 Peter 4:17. 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

 

[Reformed1689]

Yes, for those who refuse the gift. John 3:18. John 3:36. 1 Peter 4:17. 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

None of those verses, not a single one, says anything about a general redemption or even hint at such. All they say is that there is condemnation for those who do not receive the redemption. That's it.

 

[37818]

None of those verses, not a single one, says anything about a general redemption or even hint at such. All they say is that there is condemnation for those who do not receive the redemption. That's it.

A redemption which was and is provided for everyone. Also known as the [general] redemption.

 

[37818]

Denial of the general redemption does not explain to anyone that Christ paid for that person's sins so that one should believe in Christ.

 

[37818]

Mark 16:15, . . . Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel . . . .

1 Corinthians 15:1-4, . . . the gospel . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . .