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Featured Not an either or atonement.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, Jan 13, 2022.

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  1. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    You may as well just say Christs death was a general atonement, then you would be consistent.
     
    #21 Brightfame52, Jan 27, 2022
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    How before we have accepted that Christ died for us? Either we understand it includes us or we do not. If a mere reader accepts Romans 5:8 includes all sinners, that is effectively a general redemption view.
     
    #22 37818, Jan 27, 2022
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Particular redemption is found in the general redemption or Christ didn't secure anyone's redemption. But He did, John 10:15, John 10:27-28. Matthew 22:14.
     
    #23 37818, Jan 27, 2022
  4. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    But there is no evidence from the text that it includes all sinners.
     
    #24 Reformed1689, Jan 27, 2022
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The text says of the believers, "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Christ died for said believers before they believed. How is the reader to know it would excluded any sinner? A general redemption is what would be underderstood. That is what I understood on that day I believed and received Christ as my Savior.
     
    #25 37818, Jan 27, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2022
  6. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Or is the claimed being made here that in the Cross of Christ all indeed have been redeemed, and are saved until and unless they choose to reject their salvation> If so, why even have missions or preaching of the Gospel message then?
     
    #26 JesusFan, Jan 27, 2022
  7. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Included all of the sinners that were to be saved by it
     
    #27 JesusFan, Jan 27, 2022
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Why would.Romans 5:8 exclude anyone? There is nothing in said text to suggest that anyone is excluded.
     
    #28 37818, Jan 27, 2022
  9. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    No. It is talking about a specific group of people, not everyone. There is no way to get general redemption from that passage.
     
    #29 Reformed1689, Jan 27, 2022
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    How does a person who is not yet saved is know Christ solely died for those who believe from Romans 5:8?
     
    #30 37818, Jan 27, 2022
  11. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    1. If they read in context, not just a single verse, they know who the letter is addressed to, believers.
    2. How does that even matter? It has literally no bearing on the passage.
     
    #31 Reformed1689, Jan 27, 2022
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  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing anywhere in the New Testament which teaches particular redemption must excluded the general redemption.

    My argument is if general redemption was not true none of us today could know Christ died for us. You see, we know Christ died for us because the general redemption is true.
     
    #32 37818, Jan 27, 2022
  13. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Absurd. The Holy Spirit reveals it.
     
    #33 Reformed1689, Jan 27, 2022
  14. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

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    You may as well say the Christs redemption is general. Do you believe that there is an aspect of Christs death that is non redemptive ?
     
    #34 Brightfame52, Jan 27, 2022
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Yes. And that truth does not disallow the general redemption.

    [corrected]
     
    #35 37818, Jan 27, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2022
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, for those who refuse the gift. John 3:18. John 3:36. 1 Peter 4:17. 2 Thessalonians 1:8.
     
    #36 37818, Jan 27, 2022
  17. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    None of those verses, not a single one, says anything about a general redemption or even hint at such. All they say is that there is condemnation for those who do not receive the redemption. That's it.
     
    #37 Reformed1689, Jan 27, 2022
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  18. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    A redemption which was and is provided for everyone. Also known as the [general] redemption.
     
    #38 37818, Jan 27, 2022
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Denial of the general redemption does not explain to anyone that Christ paid for that person's sins so that one should believe in Christ.
     
    #39 37818, Jan 27, 2022
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Mark 16:15, . . . Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel . . . .

    1 Corinthians 15:1-4, . . . the gospel . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . .
     
    #40 37818, Jan 27, 2022
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