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Featured Moving away from Doctrine? Maturity or Apostasy?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Feb 11, 2022.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You do not believe in an actual atonement rather a potential atonement which scripture knows nothing about.If you were a confessional person you would not struggle as much as you do.
     
    #61 Iconoclast, Feb 11, 2022
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Not necessarily.

    Christ did die for "the human family" (all men). But Christ also died to save only those who believe.

    I think it is important to clarify the "for" part.

    Also, we need to acknowledge that Scripture never speaks of someone as elect except they are saved (e g., Scripture never says so and so is elect so they will believe at some point in the future).

    I only make note of this because we often do speak in those terms, and it can sometimes be a cause of miscommunication.
     
    #62 JonC, Feb 11, 2022
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Spiritual maturity is indeed a good thing.
    I hope you spiritual wondering ends well.
    I personally see warning signs and danger in what you post, but do not think you want to hear that.
     
    #63 Iconoclast, Feb 11, 2022
  4. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    For you to suggest Calvinism is built on secular philosophy is not only laughable but demonstrates to me you have never had a real grasp on the teaching, the biblical base of it, and it's place in biblical worldview.
     
    #64 Iconoclast, Feb 11, 2022
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You do not understand the law and the judgment of God.As you are coming after the truth head-on it shows a multitude of examples described in the OP.
    This post is so far from truth..It replaces Satan with God????Seriously!
     
    #65 Iconoclast, Feb 11, 2022
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    JonC,
    From my point of view you have been drifting in a bad direction, but you see it as maturing.
    I always believe that errors concerning the fall lead to a series of errors.
    What I have observed is that pattern of error in what you call maturing.
    You are wrong on spiritual death at the fall
    You are wrong on the doctrines of grace.
    You are wrong on Penal Substituionary Atonement.
    You are wrong on God's law.
    You are wrong on God's punishment being answered by the work of the mediator.

    You of course believe I am the one in error.
    You believe all the Reformers, Puritans, and present day Calvinists are all wrong.
    Now it is your right to openly express you beliefs and feelings.
    It is our right also to consider such statements and attacks as they are offered.
    Your posts fit a pattern I have seen in my life, and in each case it did not end well.
    Perhaps it will work out better for you.
    I was not going to offer these ideas until I read these additional posts. I feel I need to offer this in an attempt to point out what appears to me to be a wrong turn.
     
    #66 Iconoclast, Feb 11, 2022
  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    In 1 John 2:2, is says of Jesus Christ, "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world". "propitiation", is the Greek noun "ἱλασμός", which literally means, "a means of appeasing"

    Isaiah 53 clearly says that Jesus Christ was "stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted...Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; He has put Him to grief" (4, 10)

    2 Cor. 5:21, "For He (the Father) hath made Him (Jesus Christ) to be sin for (ὑπέρ, instead of, on our behalf) us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him"

    Galatians 3:13, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for (ὑπέρ, instead of, on our behalf) us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”

    All very clear to me, that the Bible does teach Penal Substitutionary Atonement!
     
    #67 SavedByGrace, Feb 12, 2022
  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The very fact, that 1, God loves the entire human race with a Saving Love (John 3:16-18); and, 2, that the Good News is to be Preached to every human being (Mark 16:15), and 3, that only those who repent and believe will be saved (Mark 1:15); clearly shows that the Death of Jesus Christ can ONLY be POTENTIAL.
     
    #68 SavedByGrace, Feb 12, 2022
  9. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    He was moving toward true doctrine. "Doctrine" is just a fancy word for "teaching."
     
    #69 Aaron, Feb 12, 2022
  10. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    I would say you're very self-righteous if not fearful.
     
    #70 Aaron, Feb 12, 2022
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. You are now speaking of who Christ is (you are lifting parts of Scripture and taking them out of context).

    Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the World. In Him we escape the wrath to come.

    Penal Substitution Theory cannot be made a biblical for tribe because it is the opposite of what Scripture teaches.

    Per the Bible Christ suffered and died at the hands of the powers of evil, God vindicated Him, He gained bigotry over those powers for us and liberated us from slavery.

    He is now the Propitiation for the sins of man, all Judgment has been given Him, He is our Mediator, and our High Priest.
     
    #71 JonC, Feb 12, 2022
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do understand the Law, God's law, and the Judgement of God. Scripture is clear on this.

    The issue is that you are looking at tradition and not Scripture itself.

    Penal Substitution Theory does put God in the place of Satan when it comes to the cross. But the reason is Penal Substitution Theory adopts tge corrupt view of the Law we were warned against in Isaiah. They assume the part of the Jewish leaders crying "crucify".
     
    #72 JonC, Feb 12, 2022
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. I understand Calvinism (most likely better than you). I studied it, believed it, and taught it for years.

    But God continues to teach His disciples. God convicted me of an error in Calvinism and showed me it was secularism.

    I could not make Calvinism stand after this.

    The Holy Spirit works in the lives of believers. I don't think poorly of Calvinists. They are at a stage in their walk where they may need the philosophy. The gospel still shines through, even through the error.

    We see more Reformed churches being led out of the error of Penal Substitution Theory. Perhaps God is leading them to reform Reformed Theology.

    But growth here depends on God as the believer matures.

    We hold the same faith, and over time and prayerful study you may very well grow in your walk enough to leave what is false of Calvinism behind while keeping what is true.
     
    #73 JonC, Feb 12, 2022
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Thank you. I pray the same for you.

    I do get what you are saying. A few years ago I would have told others who God revealed the truth the exact same thing.

    I know you post from the heart and mean it for my benefit. And I appreciate that.

    But you are where I once was. God led me away from Calvinism by showing me an error. There is no turning back. I hope to meet you someday on this common ground.
     
    #74 JonC, Feb 12, 2022
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  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    1] false
    2]true
    3]false
    You identify your own problem,or show why you are in error.

    Jesus said....it is finished!
    He did not say...it is potential,you just have to add to it.

    If the saving love were universal all would be saved.
     
    #75 Iconoclast, Feb 12, 2022
  16. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Crushing sure sounds like pain is involved.
     
    #76 Reformed1689, Feb 12, 2022
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  17. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    The Jewish people and their leaders who shouted "crucify!" and also the Romans had the exactly same purpose as God: the death of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    "For truly, against Your holy Servant Jesus who You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate with the Gentiles and the people of Israel gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done." Quite unwittingly they were following the will of God.
    The difference of course is described in Genesis 50:20. "But as for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive."

    With respect to this, Joseph had no hesitation in describing the sufferings inflicted upon him as coming from God. "So now it was not you who sent me here, but God" (Genesis 45:8). Now strictly speaking it was neither the brothers nor God who got Joseph to Egypt but the Ishmaelite traders, but Joseph recognizes the guiding hand of God and ascribes the whole thing to Him just as Isaiah does in Isaiah 53:10.
     
    #77 Martin Marprelate, Feb 13, 2022
  18. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Do you no longer trust what the bible says? Don't you still hold to Sola Scriptura? You have just denied clear scripture.

    How are you going to twist these words?

    This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 1Ti 2:3-6 NASB

    To understand what Christ Jesus meant when He said "it is finished" we just have to look back a few verses. "After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture" Joh 19:28

    He had accomplished what He had come for, He had provided the way of salvation for all men.
     
    #78 Silverhair, Feb 13, 2022
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  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    Martin I can see one major difference between Joseph and Christ Jesus. Joseph did not have a choice about going to Egypt. Christ Jesus chose to go to the cross. Joh 10:17-18
     
    #79 Silverhair, Feb 13, 2022
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  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The point here is we never come across doctrine and skam on the breaks. We always need to examine doctrine against God's Word and when we discover our doctrine is insufficient we move on to a more correct doctrine.
     
    #80 JonC, Feb 13, 2022
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