Moving away from Doctrine? Maturity or Apostasy?

[JesusFan]

You mean Biblical Justification. It does not come from Paul

It was inspired and revealed to Him by Lord Jesus , its in Romans!

 

[SavedByGrace]

It was inspired and revealed to Him by Lord Jesus , its in Romans!

I know where it is. All Paul did was to write the very Words of the Holy Spirit

 

[JesusFan]

It may teach some things Penal Substitution Theorists believe.

But:

It does not teach that Christ died to appease God.

It does not teach that Christ suffered God's wrath.

It does not teach that God inflicted pain and suffering on Christ.

It does not teach that God punished Christ (or our sin on Christ) instead of punishing us.

So there is that part of Penal Substitution Theory we know is unbiblical.

You know nothing of the fact, as the wrath of God was in the OT, as stored up as the Bowls and Cups of wrath as described by the OT prophets, and that was the Cup of suffering Jesus was talking to the father concerning , as he was not dreading mere physical death, but the wrath of the father poured out onto him and Him experiencing hell while upon that Cross, as tasting being forsaken by father due to being sin bearer for His people!

 

[JesusFan]

No. You are now speaking of who Christ is (you are lifting parts of Scripture and taking them out of context).

Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the World. In Him we escape the wrath to come.

Penal Substitution Theory cannot be made a biblical for tribe because it is the opposite of what Scripture teaches.

Per the Bible Christ suffered and died at the hands of the powers of evil, God vindicated Him, He gained bigotry over those powers for us and liberated us from slavery.

He is now the Propitiation for the sins of man, all Judgment has been given Him, He is our Mediator, and our High Priest.

Jesus took upon himself in his person the wrath and judgement of God due to us as being sinners, is hell not God being wrathful?

 

[JesusFan]

Yes. Christ suffered under the evil of this World by the predetermined plan of God. God was pleased to crush Him, to put Him to grief. He not o ly lay down His own life but the Father sent Him. He came to do the will of the Father. The World esteemed Him stricken by God when in fact He was redeeming them.

This is one way we know Penal Substitution Theory is a false doctrine.

God has wrath to be expressed towards sinners to be executed at the second coming event, correct?

 

[Silverhair]

Hello Silverhair
Why do you quote Eph.1:13 as if verses1-12do not come first?
Is it because you want to invent a man centered god?
You do not seem to like the God who has revealed Himself in Eph.1 verses1-13...so you snip out the verses that you do not care for.
When you do that how can you have a serious discussion?
Paul bursts into praise in this sentence....Eph.1:3-11is one sentence in the original language.It is to be read as one complete thought.
You should not use whiteout to remove those God centered portions.
The election of the people before time demonstrates why the end result is rebel sinners are drawn savingly to a saving belief.

Your blow and bluster is really funny. You do not even respond to all the verses that I posted and then go on a rant you think proves something.
Note my response was to your ONE verse in post #96 [1Ti 1:9] I agree that we should look at the complete sentence but you have cut it short, why is that? Do you not like what that last two verses say?
"In the Greek text, Eph_1:3-14 is one sentence, which is considered by some scholars to be the most cumbersome sentence in the Greek language!" BKC

I agree God knows all that will freely come to Him. When the gospel is proclaimed man has the option to accept or reject it. Rom_1:16; Rom_10:14-17; 1Th_2:13

You may want to follow the Calvinist view but I do not.

 

[Silverhair]

That is EXACTLY what the Bible says. So take it up with God, not me.

Your cognitive dissonance is once again on display.

 

[Iconoclast]

Silverhair

I finished working so now I will answer your nonsense here.

Your blow and bluster is really funny.[/QUOTE]

What is really funny is you missed the point totally once again


[QUOTE]You do not even respond to all the verses that I posted and then go on a rant you think proves something.

I just pointed out your foolish attempt to pervert scripture once again.

Note my response was to your ONE verse in post #96 [1Ti 1:9]

I posted 2 tim.1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Before the world began

I agree that we should look at the complete sentence but you have cut it short, why is that? Do you not like what that last two verses say?
"In the Greek text, Eph_1:3-14 is one sentence, which is considered by some scholars to be the most cumbersome sentence in the Greek language!" BKC

I am fine quoting the whole book, I believe all of it, and my response answered you in full.

[QUOTE]I agree God knows all that will freely come to Him.[/QUOTE]

I agree... He knows none will freely come to Him...read psalm 14, and romans3...no one seeks God no not one...yet you foolishly suggest such ideas.

When the gospel is proclaimed man has the option to accept or reject it. Rom_1:16; Rom_10:14-17; 1Th_2:13

NO..man cannot understand: He rejects it every time, He does not have an option except in your made up theology. once again you take verses that speak of the already drawn to faith elect and try andput the result before the drawing .

You may want to follow the Calvinist view but I do not.

Calvinists follow the truth of scripture, you do not want those truths

 

[Iconoclast]

Silverhair,

You quote 1Ti 1:9 but you overlook other verses such as
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

answered this already

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Good verses believed by every Calvinist.

Do you really think that little of God that you are willing to drag His character through the mud?

This is an idiotic comment that does not promote discussion at all.

1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

who are the all men here?
Do you think it is all men who have ever lived?
Do you think it is gentiles worldwide and not just jews?

You want a God that only wants to save some while I worship the God that wants all to be saved[/QUOTE]

I serve the God who saves all He intends to save, He is not willing that any perish, He saves everyone of them, none are lost

and those that trust in His son will be. But the choice is theirs to make.

The choice is Gods...men choose sin over salvation every
time.

Eph_2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

yes it is a gift from God.

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair

I finished working so now I will answer your nonsense here.



I just pointed out your foolish attempt to pervert scripture once again.



I posted 2 tim.1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Before the world began



I am fine quoting the whole book, I believe all of it, and my response answered you in full.

[QUOTE]I agree God knows all that will freely come to Him.

I agree... He knows none will freely come to Him...read psalm 14, and romans3...no one seeks God no not one...yet you foolishly suggest such ideas.




NO..man cannot understand: He rejects it every time, He does not have an option except in your made up theology. once again you take verses that speak of the already drawn to faith elect and try andput the result before the drawing .



Calvinists follow the truth of scripture, you do not want those truths[/QUOTE]

Well since you think that you should follow a man "Calvin" you do that I will follow the Bible. I have seen enough of your blow and bluster on here to see that truth is not what you are looking for. You just want people to justify your Calvinist theology. I am sure Austin and a few others will be happy to do that for you.

 

[Iconoclast]

I agree... He knows none will freely come to Him...read psalm 14, and romans3...no one seeks God no not one...yet you foolishly suggest such ideas.




NO..man cannot understand: He rejects it every time, He does not have an option except in your made up theology. once again you take verses that speak of the already drawn to faith elect and try andput the result before the drawing .



Calvinists follow the truth of scripture, you do not want those truths

Well since you think that you should follow a man "Calvin" you do that I will follow the Bible. I have seen enough of your blow and bluster on here to see that truth is not what you are looking for. You just want people to justify your Calvinist theology. I am sure Austin and a few others will be happy to do that for you.[/QUOTE]
i did not mention calvin, just scripture. Fact is you cannot deal with it.
you have come into the deep end of the pool, go back to the kiddie pool till you learn to swim.

 

[Silverhair]

Well since you think that you should follow a man "Calvin" you do that I will follow the Bible. I have seen enough of your blow and bluster on here to see that truth is not what you are looking for. You just want people to justify your Calvinist theology. I am sure Austin and a few others will be happy to do that for you.

i did not mention calvin, just scripture. Fact is you cannot deal with it.
you have come into the deep end of the pool, go back to the kiddie pool till you learn to swim.[/QUOTE]

You do not have to mention Calvin your words show that you follow him and seem to have no regard for scripture. When you stop twisting scripture or replacing words then perhaps you will really start to understand what the purpose of God was and is.

You seem to be so blinded by the TULIP that you have lost the ability to read the clear text of scripture. Your pride will be your downfall.

 

[Reformed1689]

Your cognitive dissonance is once again on display.

What dissonance do you think exists? I just take God at His word, why don't you?

 

[Iconoclast]

i did not mention calvin, just scripture. Fact is you cannot deal with it.
you have come into the deep end of the pool, go back to the kiddie pool till you learn to swim.

You do not have to mention Calvin your words show that you follow him and seem to have no regard for scripture. When you stop twisting scripture or replacing words then perhaps you will really start to understand what the purpose of God was and is.

You seem to be so blinded by the TULIP that you have lost the ability to read the clear text of scripture. Your pride will be your downfall.[/QUOTE]
The only thing that is not happening is you offering scripture that teaches anything.
You calling me names or invoking the name of Calvin does nothing.
Calvin forgot more scripture than you know.
Make your best scriptural case.
Looks like everyone is answering you with no problem.

 

[Silverhair]

What dissonance do you think exists? I just take God at His word, why don't you?

If, as you say, you take God at His word you would not say and believe the things you do.

 

[Silverhair]

You do not have to mention Calvin your words show that you follow him and seem to have no regard for scripture. When you stop twisting scripture or replacing words then perhaps you will really start to understand what the purpose of God was and is.

You seem to be so blinded by the TULIP that you have lost the ability to read the clear text of scripture. Your pride will be your downfall.

The only thing that is not happening is you offering scripture that teaches anything.
You calling me names or invoking the name of Calvin does nothing.
Calvin forgot more scripture than you know.
Make your best scriptural case.
Looks like everyone is answering you with no problem.[/QUOTE]

Funny you never answer the scripture that I have posted, all we see from you is blow and bluster. How many others on here have pointed out your miss reading of text and yet you still hold to the TULIP & Calvin. I did not realize that saying someone was a Calvinist was calling them names.

 

[AVL1984]

Well since you think that you should follow a man "Calvin" you do that I will follow the Bible. I have seen enough of your blow and bluster on here to see that truth is not what you are looking for. You just want people to justify your Calvinist theology. I am sure Austin and a few others will be happy to do that for you.

i did not mention calvin, just scripture. Fact is you cannot deal with it.
you have come into the deep end of the pool, go back to the kiddie pool till you learn to swim.[/QUOTE]
Typical Asinine putdowns and attacks by a Calvinist! Thanks for once again proving what many who hold the view of free will have pointed out time and again. Fruitless debates over Calvinism/Arminianism is STUUUUUUPPPPPPPIIIIIIIDDDDDDD~!

 

[Reformed1689]

If, as you say, you take God at His word you would not say and believe the things you do.

You didn't answer the question.

 

[kyredneck]

Then why preach?

This is typical shallow evangelical 'populate heaven' mindset. Perpetual preaching of the word has always been God's arrangement to feed the saints in the temporal realm.

10 For as the rain cometh down and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, and giveth seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isa 55

Feed My lambs...tend My sheep...feed My sheep... Jn 21:15-17

28 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood. Acts 20

1 The elders among you I exhort, who am a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, who am also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Tend the flock of God which is among you, exercising the oversight, not of constraint, but willingly, according to the will of God; nor yet for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 neither as lording it over the charge allotted to you, but making yourselves ensamples to the flock. `1 Pet 5

Modern day 'evangelism' has minimized the gospel down to a tool the Church uses to populate heaven, a formula whereby anyone can obtain immortality simply by following the instructions and repeating the incantation. If you removed the cross from the preaching it'd be pure paganism.

 

[Iconoclast]

i did not mention calvin, just scripture. Fact is you cannot deal with it.
you have come into the deep end of the pool, go back to the kiddie pool till you learn to swim.

Typical Asinine putdowns and attacks by a Calvinist! Thanks for once again proving what many who hold the view of free will have pointed out time and again. Fruitless debates over Calvinism/Arminianism is STUUUUUUPPPPPPPIIIIIIIDDDDDDD~![/QUOTE]
AVL.

Simply show free will in the Bible.
I did not say...show choose, I said show where mans self will is free.
Jesus said men are bound by sin.