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Featured Propitiation do you know what it means?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Revmitchell, Feb 15, 2022.

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  1. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

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    #101 ntchristian, Feb 16, 2022
  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    ".....if humanity is guilty of sin and condemned to death, and Christ has laid down His life in the place of the human race, not only are we saved, but we are given an example of how to live. The death of Christ is an example, but only if it also is a substitutionary sacrifice."

    Millard Erickson; Christian Theology, Third Edition; Penal Substitution Theory in Relation to other Theories: Atonement as an Example, pg. 748
     
    #102 Revmitchell, Feb 16, 2022
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  3. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

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    :Biggrin
     
    #103 ntchristian, Feb 16, 2022
  4. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

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    Not speaking for JonC, but I have already done that, elsewhere. As he said, you wish it showed PSA, but it doesn't. No one saw PSA there until 1500 AD.
     
    #104 ntchristian, Feb 16, 2022
  5. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

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    True. And Mennonites don't immerse generally. Church of the Brethren does.
     
    #105 ntchristian, Feb 16, 2022
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Some (e.g. Joyce Myers) say Jesus descended into Hell and was tortured by Satan for 3 days. Her proof is Ephesians 4:9, which "teaches" that doctrine.

    That is how Penal Substitution Theorists work. They provide verses and tell you those passages teach something not actually contained in the Bible.

    I do not understand why they can't simply accept God's Word as sufficient.
     
    #106 JonC, Feb 16, 2022
  7. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

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    #107 ntchristian, Feb 16, 2022
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  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    do you really understand what PSA is? If you cannot see this in Isaiah 53, then it is clear that you don't!

     
    #108 SavedByGrace, Feb 16, 2022
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  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I know you have, and I have as well.

    Isaiah 53 teaches EXACTLY what it says, without adding to it Penal Substitution Theory.

    In essence @SavedByGrace is denying the sufficiency of Scripture.
     
    #109 JonC, Feb 16, 2022
  10. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

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    That might be appropriate for some, especially some I've met on forums. :)
     
    #110 ntchristian, Feb 16, 2022
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Jon, you should not keep on posting complete nonsense! Like the others on here, it is clear that you do NOT even understand what PSA is!
     
    #111 SavedByGrace, Feb 16, 2022
  12. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

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    I understand what it is -- an abhorrent, non-scriptural doctrine invented by a murderer.
     
    #112 ntchristian, Feb 16, 2022
  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    another strawman argument, because there is not one that you or the others can really show that Isaiah 53 does not teach it!
     
    #113 SavedByGrace, Feb 16, 2022
  14. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    quit talking RUBBISH!
     
    #114 SavedByGrace, Feb 16, 2022
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I wasn't going to mention John Calvin, but you are right. It is easy to see through the Theory that he was trained as a lawyer and not a theologian. It is based on humanistic judicial philosophy.
     
    #115 JonC, Feb 16, 2022
  16. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

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    After reading these threads, I am glad that one Western "Tradition" is no longer practiced -- killing other Christians because of their beliefs. I think Baptists and Anabaptists are the only ones who didn't do that.
     
    #116 ntchristian, Feb 16, 2022
  17. ntchristian

    ntchristian Active Member

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    Quite right.
     
    #117 ntchristian, Feb 16, 2022
  18. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    He, that is Jesus Christ, was WOUNDED for our transgressions...

    What do you think that this means
     
    #118 SavedByGrace, Feb 16, 2022
  19. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    They don't really. The last two do. What I'm saying is that there is a lot of debate about how much influence the Mennonites had on what became the General Baptists because although they did influence Smyth, there are documents showing how many of the Mennonite doctrines were specifically rejected by the Baptists, and the disagreements between Smyth and Helwys show that. There is also disagreement about whether Smyth had as much influence as Helwys and Grantham on the General Baptists. I don't have an axe to grind here. Someday I'll look into it more. But the modern General Baptists are not descendants of Anabaptists - as much as some of them would like to be. By the way, when growing up I went to a Missionary Church which was an off shoot of the Mennonites. I really liked it and the people and don't think I would have any problem with Mennonites either, for that matter.
     
    #119 DaveXR650, Feb 16, 2022
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Just as you cannot prove Scripture does not "teach" that cows fly

    BUT I CAN prove Penal Substitution Theory is not in the Word of God or the text of Scripture simply by pointing out it is not there (and the fact you cannot provide a passage).

    You prove this by mentioning Isaiah 53, which nowhere in the actual text says Jesus suffered our punishment instead of us, that Christ experienced God's wrath, or even that Christ's death appeased God's wrath.
     
    #120 JonC, Feb 16, 2022
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