Featured Did Jesus take on the wrath of God as propitiation for our sin?

Where is the Scripture that declares the penalty of the sin?

I am not doubting that it cannot be found, but I am tired of dealing with philosophy and not the Scriptures.

 

What do the Scriptures state?

Did you actually look at the Scriptures I posted?

They answered your question.

Do you believe the Scriptures over your own philosophy?

Do you not understand what Romans 5 states?

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.​

Why do you persist in the thinking that some might wrath of the Father had to be propitiated? Perhaps because it is exampled by the Jews while "wandering" though they weren't wandering but being lead.

Romans 7 describes a person in conflict because they (as do all believers) find a war raging in them concerning the authority of sin and the authority of God.
Romans 8 starts with this verse:

1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
​

This is what the death of Jesus actually did. There was NO wrath from the Father. Such was propitiated by the BLOOD.

 

No Cross, No shed blood, no propitiation of wrath of the father, not even God can save then!

 

You have NOTHING that gives to us a basis for how Holy God can justify lost sinners and yet still remain Holy!

 

It does get old.
As you no doubt noticed, there were times when I just had to get away from the thread(s) and spend time with my Saviour in prayer and reflection. He is so amazing in the refreshing and feeding, bringing to mind that which I need.

 

This is really a emotionally driven post that is totally uncharacteristic of @JonC and me, and I thought better of you, also.

Are you not Yeshua1? Was he one to post such outrageous - ness?

You brought philosophy, we brought both philosophy and Scriptures.

You brought how many Scriptures?

You are then left with humanistic philosophy based upon the anti-Christ church which historically has been a deceiver.

You are then left with the humanistic philosophy based upon reformers who did manipulate the teaching of the anti-Christ church to their own schemes in which they departed from Scripture truth.

You are then left with the humanistic philosophy that denies the very Fullness of God in Christ Jesus, who was innocent of all sin, and did provide the most perfect sacrifice to the very temple of God in Heaven (Hebrews), in which God was pleased.

No, there was no wrath of the Father upon the righteousness of the Son. Such philosophy is evil, and places the Son as evil.

God saves who He desires for His purpose and for His glory.

You have not attended to a single verse that I or @JonC have posted or you would not present as you did in this post.

 

How much more Scriptures do we need to show you?

Of the top of my head we have been in Genesis, Leviticus, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, Ephesians, Galatians, Colossians, 1 John, 1 and 2 Peter, Revelations, and more I am sure.

What do you have to offer? You want to deal in philosophy?

Then answer this.

Premise:

Jesus Christ is God in the flesh - that is Scriptural.
Jesus Christ is a full member of the trinity which cannot be broken and seen by actions in the Scriptures. That is Scriptural.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God - that is Scriptural.​

Questions:

How then does God pour wrath out upon God?

How then do you heal a broken trinity, or can it actually be broken?

How does you philosophy account for God's wrath applied to the rebelliousness of humanity and Christ was never rebellious?​

Philosophy that is so far way from Scripture results in those who cannot find out how a "Holy God can justify lost sinners and yet still remain Holy." Philosophy that is contrary to the teaching of Scriptures only brings that which is unsupported by the Scriptures.

Do you cling to such rather then the truth?

@JonC and I have consistently shown both the Scriptures and the proper application, yet do you deny the truth?

It is up to you.

 

You are not addressing the issue. Essentially you seem to think that God wrote the law, but doesn't hold himself responsible to judge according to the law he created.
God's new covenant established in that will (by the way, Jesus had to die for the will to be invoked) that the persons written into the will would also have the law written on their heart (read Hebrews).
The writers of the New Testament establish that Jesus was the true Passover Lamb. The Passover Lamb was slaughtered by the father of the household so its blood could be spread on the door frame to stop the death angel. The family was then to eat all of the Lamb in remembrance that the Lamb had received the judgment rather than the people. This is why Jesus made himself the Lamb in the communion meal. He told us to eat his flesh and drink his blood in remembrance. He told us exactly what was happening and showed us how the events that happened with Moses were foreshadows of Himself as the lamb.
Furthermore, John expresses this same Lamb in the Revelation of Jesus.
Agedman, you are trying to explain away the scripture and ultimately express that God is not just.
I know you would never say that about God so I can only conclude you simply aren't thinking through the ramifications of your present position.

 

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

I am not nearly as patient as you. Age comes with a view that there are little days in which to spend time sharing the Scriptures that I desire to pound it out.

I am amazed that those who would defend that accurate reading of Scriptures would redefine that when it comes to these threads. Such inconsistency is alarming.

 

No, I present that God is not responsible to be held by the law He created. The law is a "school master" to bring us to Christ. God need(ed, s) no such "school master."

I have and do continually read and post from Hebrews. But, that is not all that Hebrews states, is it.
Unlike those who impose that God in order to justify had to pour wrath upon the Son, From the opening of Hebrews it states:

3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. ​

It is not only illogical, but unscriptural for God to pour wrath out upon the "very radiance of (His) glory and the exact representation of His nature..."

Certainly, HOWEVER, the Passover which became the yearly atonement was NOT sacrificed by the fathers but by the High Priest. Such was established AFTER the Law was given and the tabernacle built.
Hebrews presents this concerning the Son:

10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting for God, for whom and through whom all things exist, to make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11For both the One who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.​

Jesus was not nor ever to be called 'father' for there is one Father.
Rather Jesus is the High Priest again as found in Hebrews:

1Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, set your focus on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. 2He was faithful to the One who appointed Him, just as Moses was faithful in all God’s house.​

And agian:

14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess. 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin. 16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.​

This isn't an issue with me.

Do you take Revelation 16 as factual? I do.

You might think such thoughts, but it is far from what I hold. God is just and the justifier. He is Sovereign over all matters.

You present that God poured out wrath upon the Son.

The Scriptures tell a far different story.
Again from Hebrews:

7During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence. 8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him 10and was designated by God as high priest in the order of Melchizedek.​

And again:

6When everything had been prepared in this way (the tabernacle/temple), the priests entered regularly into the first room to perform their sacred duties. 7But only the high priest entered the second room, and then only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.

8By this arrangement the Holy Spirit was showing that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. 9It is an illustration for the present time, because the gifts and sacrifices being offered were unable to cleanse the conscience of the worshiper. 10They consist only in food and drink and special washings—external regulations imposed until the time of reform. 11But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come,f He went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made by hands and is not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by the blood of goats and calves, but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption. ​

HERE then is redemption!
There was NO wrath of God poured out upon the Son.
Christ ALONE entered the Heavenly tabernacle. He ALONE by His own blood secured eternal redemption.

PSA denies Hebrews presentation of the Gospel.

Do you?

 

Wages - that which is payed by an owner to an employee.

There is no debt owed when wages are paid.

If the wages were not paid, there would then be debt owed by Sin to the employee. But Sin doesn't carry a dept it is a slave master who binds.

 

In Christ we are freed from condemnation. How were we set free from that condemnation, John. How is it that we are found in Christ?

Jon, the Passover Lamb was perfect. Loved by the family and the father who would kill the lamb, take the blood and spread it on the doorframe and then the entire family would eat the lamb.
Jesus is that Lamb.
Paul says that we have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless we live, yet not us, but Christ lives.
Ephesians 2 says that sin killed us and we were dead, but God made us alive...with Christ. It is not what we must do. It is what Christ has done.
God sees Christ, and since we are in Christ, God sees us as fully Redeemed.
Now, I don't care one lick about what theological term is applied to what I just wrote. I only care that God shows me this in His word and I believe it.

 

God gave the law and it is the law that condemns us. The wages of that law breaking required the sentence of death. God the Son didn't die because of what he did. He died because of what I did. As my Passover substitute, he received the death that the death angel was going to give to me. Jesus took the judgment from the Father that I was supposed to receive.
Hebrews expresses that Jesus is greater than all things. Greater than angels, greater than Moses, greater than the Levitical priests, greater than the High Priest. It also expresses that Jesus is that Lamb which was slain.

Hebrews 10:8-14
When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

I can see you are set like a rock on this subject. You, and others, can believe as you wish. What I know is what I read in scripture. Jesus paid my debt and set me free.