Did Jesus take on the wrath of God as propitiation for our sin?

[Eternally Grateful]

Gods wrath is targeted against the sin of rebellion.

I never stated humans punished Christ for our Sins!

Humans punished Christ. Period.

Sin was forgiven by the flood shed.

Transgression of the Law was resolve by GOD nailing them to the cross (Colossians 2)

your all over the place. You did insinuate that.

Jesus suffered the debt we owe.

Us shedding our blood does not pay for our sin or everyone who died physically would be forgiven because they paid their own debt.

The innocent lamb which was slaughtered is what the law symbolically showed will happen to Christ. According to the law. Blood had to be shed.

But according to God. he had to pay the debt for all mankind. from adam on.. There was no law in adam's day. And adam died the moment he sinned, Just like God said he would

that was his payment for sin. He was restored. because Christ would suffer that same death many years later.

 

[JesusFan]

No, my friend, @JonC gave the very standard definition of atonement taught by nearly all, even those of the world.

Synonyms for atonement are: to bring reconciliation, to bring appeasement, to pacify, to cover over.

It is the authority of our Sovereign God to overlook, cover, … sin.

It was His authority that established the Law.

It was The Law that held decrees against humankind.

Such decrees were nailed to the cross (Colossians 2).

God needed the Cross of Christ to have the required propitiation for His wrath towards sins!

Must have the shed blood of Jesus, and Him receiving upon Himself our due judgement for our sins!

 

[JesusFan]

Of course I did.

Does God love perfectly?

Here is the NIV presenting 1John 4:

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
​

Neither @JonC nor I do not recognize the sorrow of the Lord.
We acknowledge the suffering.

We do not attach such things as fear, sting of death, victory of the grave, and other embellishments, for Christ is the victorious one.

Knowing all down to the Molecular level of each blow, each thorn, each strip did not fear the Lord, but the body reacted just as any other’s would, which again is a sign of his total humanity. The tears were real, the pain enormous, the responsibility that which only the fullness of God could sustain,”for the wages of sin is death;” however, He did not die by such wages.

He laid His life down, and He took it up, for it is impossible for God to die.

There was no wrath from God, for God was on the cross doing all that was abundantly necessary to conquer as that victorious King.

This was His destiny, the reason for coming, and having fulfilled the mission, now is again exalted above all.

John, Paul, Peter, report no where concerning the wrath of God being poured out upon Christ.

If it is that big a foundational view, then all of them would have made much of that thinking, but they didn’t even present the work of the crucifixion in such terms.

Without him suffering our due wrath and judgement on our behalf, we must all receive them!

 

[JesusFan]

Of course I did.

Does God love perfectly?

Here is the NIV presenting 1John 4:

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
​

Neither @JonC nor I do not recognize the sorrow of the Lord.
We acknowledge the suffering.

We do not attach such things as fear, sting of death, victory of the grave, and other embellishments, for Christ is the victorious one.

Knowing all down to the Molecular level of each blow, each thorn, each strip did not fear the Lord, but the body reacted just as any other’s would, which again is a sign of his total humanity. The tears were real, the pain enormous, the responsibility that which only the fullness of God could sustain,”for the wages of sin is death;” however, He did not die by such wages.

He laid His life down, and He took it up, for it is impossible for God to die.

There was no wrath from God, for God was on the cross doing all that was abundantly necessary to conquer as that victorious King.

This was His destiny, the reason for coming, and having fulfilled the mission, now is again exalted above all.

John, Paul, Peter, report no where concerning the wrath of God being poured out upon Christ.

If it is that big a foundational view, then all of them would have made much of that thinking, but they didn’t even present the work of the crucifixion in such terms.

Without him suffering our due wrath and judgement on our behalf, we must all receive them!

 

[JesusFan]

You are mistaken.

the cup of wrath was given to humans who were a dare in rebellion.

No prophecy states the anointed, the savior, was given the cup of wrath by God.

IF Jesus did not take that wrath due to us as sinners, we will still receive it!

 

[JonC]

​

your all over the place. You did insinuate that.

Jesus suffered the debt we owe.

Us shedding our blood does not pay for our sin or everyone who died physically would be forgiven because they paid their own debt.

The innocent lamb which was slaughtered is what the law symbolically showed will happen to Christ. According to the law. Blood had to be shed.

But according to God. he had to pay the debt for all mankind. from adam on.. There was no law in adam's day. And adam died the moment he sinned, Just like God said he would

that was his payment for sin. He was restored. because Christ would suffer that same death many years later.

You are misunderstanding Scripture.

Nobody....not God....not man...punished Christ for our sins.

Christ died for our sins. Christ suffered and died at the hands of the wicked....men who esteemed Him stricken and afflicted by God. But this was the will of God. This was in accordance to His predetermined plan. He was pleased to crush Him, to put Him to grief. The chastisement for our peace and wellbeing fell upon Him.

Nowhere does Scripture say this was God's punishment.

Nowhere does the Bible say this was men punishing Christ for our sins.

Nowhere does God's Word teach that Christ suffered God's wrath instead of us.

This is evident as no member has been able to provide even one verse or passage stating the Theory. You guys post verses and then continue with your theory be saying what you think those verses mean.

Who cares what the passages means to you? What matters is their actual meaning. And Penal Substitution Theory is absent from Scripture.

Not only that, but Penal Substitution Theorists deny passages that teach it is an abomination to substitute the just for the unjust. They deny passages (a majority of the OT) that speak of God's righteousness towards the Just. They deny passages that state sins cannot be transferred.

I like many of the Reformers works and perspectives. But they are not the measure or test of my faith. They shouldn't be yours either.

 

[agedman]

your all over the place. You did insinuate that.

No, go back and reread what I originally posted, and you will recognize that you must have added to what I said by thinking I insinuated, but I did not.

I may be guilty of miss-posting at time, for my fingers and the little letters on the Ipad don't always meet with the same intent. See like Adam - I blame something else for my sin.

Jesus suffered the debt we owe.

I will need you to back up this statement with Scriptures. "The debt I owe" is from a song by Issac Watts, and I posted a thread concerning the validity of the statement. We owe a debt to the Law. And the decrees held against us by the Law (according to Colosians 2) were nailed by God to the Cross.

Us shedding our blood does not pay for our sin or everyone who died physically would be forgiven because they paid their own debt.

I don't disagree. We are not pure and innocent. Our Lord was "without sin" even to the death of the cross.

The innocent lamb which was slaughtered is what the law symbolically showed will happen to Christ. According to the law. Blood had to be shed.

But according to God. he had to pay the debt for all mankind. from adam on.. There was no law in adam's day. And adam died the moment he sinned, Just like God said he would

that was his payment for sin. He was restored. because Christ would suffer that same death many years later.

What does the Scriptures teach that Christ did while His body was taken from the cross and laid in the tomb for three days?

1 Peter 4:

5But they will have to give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 That is why the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged as men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. ​

1 Peter 3:

18For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

(note: the word "suffer" in the Greek means to undergo ill treatment. Certainly, humans treated the Lord most vile. )​

 

[agedman]

God needed the Cross of Christ to have the required propitiation for His wrath towards sins!

Must have the shed blood of Jesus, and Him receiving upon Himself our due judgement for our sins!

No, you are adding to Scriptures.

The shed blood forgives sins. He did not receive wrath upon Himself for our due judgement for those sins. Rather, as Colossians 2 states:

He forgave us all our trespasses, 14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.​

 

[agedman]

Without him suffering our due wrath and judgement on our behalf, we must all receive them!

Again:

I present you what is stated in Colossians 2:

He forgave us all our trespasses, 14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
​

Christ did not "suffer(ing) our due."

Such thinking is akin to that which is a purgatory thinking in which one must "pay" something for evil, but eventually what is due is resolved by payment.

How was the debt taken away? It was nailed to the cross. Not by God's wrath being poured out upon the Christ.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

​

You are misunderstanding Scripture.

Nobody....not God....not man...punished Christ for our sins.

Then we are still dead in our sin period.

Its not me who does not understand Gods justice, it is you

 

[agedman]

Then we are still dead in our sin period.

Its not me who does not understand Gods justice, it is you

What Bible verse are you relying upon for your statement that unless sin is punished it is not forgiven?

 

[AustinC]

Psalm 79

9Help us, O God of our salvation,
for the glory of Your name;
deliver us and atone for our sins,
for the sake of Your name.
​

His Sovereignty provides covering should He desire.

Jeremiah 18:

23But You, O LORD, know all their deadly plots against me.
Do not wipe out their guilt
or blot out their sin from Your sight.
Let them be overthrown before You;
deal with them in the time of Your anger.​

His Sovereignty provides covering should He desire.

I don't see how these two verses support your earlier assertion, nor do the answer my question.
You wrote:
It is the authority of our Sovereign God to overlook, cover, … sin.

How does God overlook and cover up sin, yet still remain just? Something more than a cover up or looking the other way has to be done by a just judge.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What Bible verse are you relying upon for your statement that unless sin is punished it is not forgiven?

How can sin be redeemed and the sinner be justified if the price of sin is not paid?

How can justification occur if the person is still guilty and the price is not paid.

 

[agedman]

I don't see how these two verses support your earlier assertion, nor do the answer my question.
You wrote:
It is the authority of our Sovereign God to overlook, cover, … sin.

How does God overlook and cover up sin, yet still remain just? Something more than a cover up or looking the other way has to be done by a just judge.

Who made the Law?

Is the maker of the Law then servant of the Law?

Is not God both the judge and the one who justifies? (Romans 3:26)

I suppose that you might wonder if there is a place or time in which is an example given of this in action.

Jeremiah (31) spoke of the future concerns of the people of Israel.

31"Behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their fathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of the land of Egypt—
a covenant they broke,
though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

“But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after those days," declares the LORD.
"I will put My law in their minds
and inscribe it on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
and they will be My people.
No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother,
saying, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know Me,
from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD.

'For I will forgive their iniquities
and will remember their sins no more.”
​

Do you not hold that God will have "mercy on whom..."


This thread isn't pertaining to the last days, but Jeremiah's prophetic statement is the covenant with Israel as part of the millennium. You may disagree as to the application, but I wanted to show you the application of covering by forgiveness.

 

[JonC]

How can sin be redeemed and the sinner be justified if the price of sin is not paid?

How can justification occur if the person is still guilty and the price is not paid.

Sin is never redeemed.

Justification cannot occur unless the person is dies to the flesh and is made a new creation in Christ.

Quote the passage speaking of a "Sin debt" and let's discuss it.

 

[agedman]

How can sin be redeemed and the sinner be justified if the price of sin is not paid?

How can justification occur if the person is still guilty and the price is not paid.

Again, you are offering a question concerning philosophy and not Scripture.

But let us look first at the position that sin accrues a debt. I don't read that in the Scriptures.

What I read are statements of sin enslaving, such as found in Proverbs 5:22.

As such, the Law of God has decrees that humanity violate and that is related as a debt by Paul:

13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.​

The "record of debt" is not the "price of sin."

It is a record of deeds done. It is seen at the last judgement as "books" opened and the deeds of humankind being displayed.

Some present that sin demands payment.

Yet Sin isn't a employee or customer, but the employer - the owner. The customer pays the employer and the employer pays the employee. The wages the employee, of the employer called "sin," is death. We all die. There is no debt owed sin as one of our culture ascribes that owed.

So, then that issue resolved, let us not forget how the sinner is justified.

The Scriptures state that one who relies upon the Law is alienated from Christ. (Galatians 3 and 4)

So what is Pauline justification:

21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.

This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
​

It did not take God pouring out His wrath upon the Son to bring both justice and one justified. It was the propitiation BY HIS BLOOD that God put forth.

That same offering portrayed in the OT atonement was there at the crucifixion. No wrath from God for He was satisfied, pleased, and as a result exalted above measure the Son.

 

[JesusFan]

Who made the Law?

Is the maker of the Law then servant of the Law?

Is not God both the judge and the one who justifies? (Romans 3:26)

I suppose that you might wonder if there is a place or time in which is an example given of this in action.

Jeremiah (31) spoke of the future concerns of the people of Israel.

31"Behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their fathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of the land of Egypt—
a covenant they broke,
though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

“But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after those days," declares the LORD.
"I will put My law in their minds
and inscribe it on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
and they will be My people.
No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother,
saying, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know Me,
from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD.

'For I will forgive their iniquities
and will remember their sins no more.”
​

Do you not hold that God will have "mercy on whom..."


This thread isn't pertaining to the last days, but Jeremiah's prophetic statement is the covenant with Israel as part of the millennium. You may disagree as to the application, but I wanted to show you the application of covering by forgiveness.

God CANNOT just overlook sin, just freely pardon our sins , IF there has been none of the sin penalty accounted for and paid for in full!

 

[JesusFan]

Again, you are offering a question concerning philosophy and not Scripture.

But let us look first at the position that sin accrues a debt. I don't read that in the Scriptures.

What I read are statements of sin enslaving, such as found in Proverbs 5:22.

As such, the Law of God has decrees that humanity violate and that is related as a debt by Paul:

13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.​

The "record of debt" is not the "price of sin."

It is a record of deeds done. It is seen at the last judgement as "books" opened and the deeds of humankind being displayed.

Some present that sin demands payment.

Yet Sin isn't a employee or customer, but the employer - the owner. The customer pays the employer and the employer pays the employee. The wages the employee, of the employer called "sin," is death. We all die. There is no debt owed sin as one of our culture ascribes that owed.

So, then that issue resolved, let us not forget how the sinner is justified.

The Scriptures state that one who relies upon the Law is alienated from Christ. (Galatians 3 and 4)

So what is Pauline justification:

21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.

This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
​

It did not take God pouring out His wrath upon the Son to bring both justice and one justified. It was the propitiation BY HIS BLOOD that God put forth.

That same offering portrayed in the OT atonement was there at the crucifixion. No wrath from God for He was satisfied, pleased, and as a result exalted above measure the Son.

What did the death of Jesus actually do then of the wrath of the father has not been propitiated by it?

 

[Dave G]

In reply to the OP,

No, I do not believe that the Lord Jesus took on the believer's just punishment, nor did He take on the wrath of God that will fall on every unbeliever that has ever lived or will live.
He did not suffer corruption, He was not and will not be cast into outer darkness, and He was not and will not be tormented forever in the Lake of Fire.

In other words,
No, He did not take on God's wrath in the strictest sense.
If He did, He would have had to take all of it on...not just what happened to Him before and during His crucifixion.

He became sin who had no sin, was made the Lamb of God and suffered on the cross once, for sin.
His Father was pleased to bruise Him for our sake, but never did reject His Son for anything that He ever did...unlike the vast majority of mankind.


That suffering at the hands of those who had Him killed did not include the eternal wrath that we, as a race ( save those who are the recipients of His grace and mercy towards them ) will face at the Judgement .

 

[agedman]

God CANNOT just overlook sin, just freely pardon our sins , IF there has been none of the sin penalty accounted for and paid for in full!

You are offering philosophy and not Scripture.

I thought you held to the Sovereignty of God?

During the earthly ministry, our Lord spent much of His time healing. Of those healed, He mentions to some, "Your sins are forgiven."

Now, were was the penalty account for and paid in full shown in the Scripture examples during His time on earth?


Let us move away from philosophy and deal in the Scriptures.

Romans 3:

21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.

This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
​

Do you see the words "...he had passed over former sins..."?

God is Sovereign. As such, He has authority over the Law and the application of that Law.

He did not pour wrath out upon the Son, but was pleased with the Blood offering of the Son, and by that propitiation redeems as He chooses those to His purpose.

Where then is wrath?

Romans:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
​

Revelation 14:

9And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
​

Revelation 16:
The actual bowls of God's wrath being poured out.​