Where is the Scripture that declares the penalty of the sin?
I am not doubting that it cannot be found, but I am tired of dealing with philosophy and not the Scriptures.
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Did Jesus take on the wrath of God as propitiation for our sin?
- Thread starter Revmitchell
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I am not doubting that it cannot be found, but I am tired of dealing with philosophy and not the Scriptures.
There are several philosophical ideas assumed by Penal Substitution Theory. It is very easy to see that the Theory depends on the moral philosophy of Renaissance humanism (15th and 16th century).
It should surprise nobody that John Calvin, trained in secular law, reworked RCC doctrine to create Penal Substitution Theory.
I as well. This is one of many threads on the topic....and this one is coming to an end. Yet the supporters of Penal Substitution Theory have not yet offered even one passage of support. You'll always get "Scripture really means.....or teaches...such and such". All philosophy. No Scripture. I try to be patient, but it gets old.
What do the Scriptures state?
Did you actually look at the Scriptures I posted?
They answered your question.
Do you believe the Scriptures over your own philosophy?
Do you not understand what Romans 5 states?
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Why do you persist in the thinking that some might wrath of the Father had to be propitiated? Perhaps because it is exampled by the Jews while "wandering" though they weren't wandering but being lead.
Romans 7 describes a person in conflict because they (as do all believers) find a war raging in them concerning the authority of sin and the authority of God.
Romans 8 starts with this verse:
1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.
3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
No Cross, No shed blood, no propitiation of wrath of the father, not even God can save then!
You have NOTHING that gives to us a basis for how Holy God can justify lost sinners and yet still remain Holy!
It does get old.
As you no doubt noticed, there were times when I just had to get away from the thread(s) and spend time with my Saviour in prayer and reflection. He is so amazing in the refreshing and feeding, bringing to mind that which I need.
I have to remind myself that I post to encourage others to reexamine their views and seek out the truth of God's Word. The reason is the depth of Scripture these people are missing, that I had missed until God led me away from the philosophy which holds so many captive.
But the "others" I hope to reach are not necessarily those involved on these posts. I suspect they are unwilling to honestly examine their theory against Scripture for fear it will fail the test.
The others are those who may pass by and notice the lack of actual biblical support for Penal Substitution Theory. God can, and I believe will, teach those with an ear to hear.
This is really a emotionally driven post that is totally uncharacteristic of @JonC and me, and I thought better of you, also.
Are you not Yeshua1? Was he one to post such outrageous - ness?
You brought philosophy, we brought both philosophy and Scriptures.
You brought how many Scriptures?
You are then left with humanistic philosophy based upon the anti-Christ church which historically has been a deceiver.
You are then left with the humanistic philosophy based upon reformers who did manipulate the teaching of the anti-Christ church to their own schemes in which they departed from Scripture truth.
You are then left with the humanistic philosophy that denies the very Fullness of God in Christ Jesus, who was innocent of all sin, and did provide the most perfect sacrifice to the very temple of God in Heaven (Hebrews), in which God was pleased.
No, there was no wrath of the Father upon the righteousness of the Son. Such philosophy is evil, and places the Son as evil.
God saves who He desires for His purpose and for His glory.
You have not attended to a single verse that I or @JonC have posted or you would not present as you did in this post.
How much more Scriptures do we need to show you?
Of the top of my head we have been in Genesis, Leviticus, Exodus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, Ephesians, Galatians, Colossians, 1 John, 1 and 2 Peter, Revelations, and more I am sure.
What do you have to offer? You want to deal in philosophy?
Then answer this.
Premise:
Jesus Christ is God in the flesh - that is Scriptural.
Jesus Christ is a full member of the trinity which cannot be broken and seen by actions in the Scriptures. That is Scriptural.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God - that is Scriptural.
Jesus Christ is a full member of the trinity which cannot be broken and seen by actions in the Scriptures. That is Scriptural.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God - that is Scriptural.
Questions:
How then does God pour wrath out upon God?
How then do you heal a broken trinity, or can it actually be broken?
How does you philosophy account for God's wrath applied to the rebelliousness of humanity and Christ was never rebellious?
How then do you heal a broken trinity, or can it actually be broken?
How does you philosophy account for God's wrath applied to the rebelliousness of humanity and Christ was never rebellious?
Philosophy that is so far way from Scripture results in those who cannot find out how a "Holy God can justify lost sinners and yet still remain Holy." Philosophy that is contrary to the teaching of Scriptures only brings that which is unsupported by the Scriptures.
Do you cling to such rather then the truth?
@JonC and I have consistently shown both the Scriptures and the proper application, yet do you deny the truth?
It is up to you.
You are not addressing the issue. Essentially you seem to think that God wrote the law, but doesn't hold himself responsible to judge according to the law he created.
God's new covenant established in that will (by the way, Jesus had to die for the will to be invoked) that the persons written into the will would also have the law written on their heart (read Hebrews).
The writers of the New Testament establish that Jesus was the true Passover Lamb. The Passover Lamb was slaughtered by the father of the household so its blood could be spread on the door frame to stop the death angel. The family was then to eat all of the Lamb in remembrance that the Lamb had received the judgment rather than the people. This is why Jesus made himself the Lamb in the communion meal. He told us to eat his flesh and drink his blood in remembrance. He told us exactly what was happening and showed us how the events that happened with Moses were foreshadows of Himself as the lamb.
Furthermore, John expresses this same Lamb in the Revelation of Jesus.
Agedman, you are trying to explain away the scripture and ultimately express that God is not just.
I know you would never say that about God so I can only conclude you simply aren't thinking through the ramifications of your present position.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
I am not nearly as patient as you. Age comes with a view that there are little days in which to spend time sharing the Scriptures that I desire to pound it out.
I am amazed that those who would defend that accurate reading of Scriptures would redefine that when it comes to these threads. Such inconsistency is alarming.
Let me ask you.....who in Christ is condemned under the Law? That is the crux of the issue.
Scripture does not say we are saved by having our sin dept paid. We MUST BE BORN AGAIN. We must die to the flesh and be made alive in the Spirit.
What sins has the Spirit committed? In what ways has Christ in you transgressed the law?
Ultimately there are two positions being discussed here....only one biblical.
We must have had our sins transfered to Christ do that God could condemn the Innocent in order to acquit the guilty. OR. We must be born again.
Scripture warns us not to be carried away by vain philosophy. Unfortunately they are.
If it were merely their personal opinions at stake it would be serious as they miss so much of God's Word and the nature of His kingdom. But they may be saved despite the error (as was I).
The more serious issue is the obstacles they place before others. This has increasingly become an issue as people in general have come to see 15th and 16th century moral philosophy as flawed.
Penal Substitution Theory is based on this philosophy. More and more Christians once swayed by the Theory are realizing its contrast with Scripture. There are even movements within Reformed Theology to move towards a more biblical view of redemption.
But another consequence is people leaving the faith as the cracks in what they have been taught begin to appear. Like any false doctrine concerning a foundational issue, Penal Substitution Theory may sit well with many but is a danger to the faith.
No, I present that God is not responsible to be held by the law He created. The law is a "school master" to bring us to Christ. God need(ed, s) no such "school master."
I have and do continually read and post from Hebrews. But, that is not all that Hebrews states, is it.
Unlike those who impose that God in order to justify had to pour wrath upon the Son, From the opening of Hebrews it states:
3The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
It is not only illogical, but unscriptural for God to pour wrath out upon the "very radiance of (His) glory and the exact representation of His nature..."Certainly, HOWEVER, the Passover which became the yearly atonement was NOT sacrificed by the fathers but by the High Priest. Such was established AFTER the Law was given and the tabernacle built.
Hebrews presents this concerning the Son:
10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting for God, for whom and through whom all things exist, to make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11For both the One who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.
Rather Jesus is the High Priest again as found in Hebrews:
And agian:
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess. 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin. 16Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
This isn't an issue with me.
Do you take Revelation 16 as factual? I do.
You might think such thoughts, but it is far from what I hold. God is just and the justifier. He is Sovereign over all matters.
You present that God poured out wrath upon the Son.
The Scriptures tell a far different story.
Again from Hebrews:
7During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence. 8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him 10and was designated by God as high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
6When everything had been prepared in this way (the tabernacle/temple), the priests entered regularly into the first room to perform their sacred duties. 7But only the high priest entered the second room, and then only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.
8By this arrangement the Holy Spirit was showing that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. 9It is an illustration for the present time, because the gifts and sacrifices being offered were unable to cleanse the conscience of the worshiper. 10They consist only in food and drink and special washings—external regulations imposed until the time of reform. 11But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come,f He went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made by hands and is not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by the blood of goats and calves, but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption.
8By this arrangement the Holy Spirit was showing that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. 9It is an illustration for the present time, because the gifts and sacrifices being offered were unable to cleanse the conscience of the worshiper. 10They consist only in food and drink and special washings—external regulations imposed until the time of reform. 11But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come,f He went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made by hands and is not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by the blood of goats and calves, but He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption.
HERE then is redemption!
There was NO wrath of God poured out upon the Son.
Christ ALONE entered the Heavenly tabernacle. He ALONE by His own blood secured eternal redemption.
PSA denies Hebrews presentation of the Gospel.
Do you?
Wages - that which is payed by an owner to an employee.
There is no debt owed when wages are paid.
If the wages were not paid, there would then be debt owed by Sin to the employee. But Sin doesn't carry a dept it is a slave master who binds.
In Christ we are freed from condemnation. How were we set free from that condemnation, John. How is it that we are found in Christ?
Jon, the Passover Lamb was perfect. Loved by the family and the father who would kill the lamb, take the blood and spread it on the doorframe and then the entire family would eat the lamb.
Jesus is that Lamb.
Paul says that we have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless we live, yet not us, but Christ lives.
Ephesians 2 says that sin killed us and we were dead, but God made us alive...with Christ. It is not what we must do. It is what Christ has done.
God sees Christ, and since we are in Christ, God sees us as fully Redeemed.
Now, I don't care one lick about what theological term is applied to what I just wrote. I only care that God shows me this in His word and I believe it.
By faith.
I dont mean this as insulting (I once stood where you now stand), but I doubt showing you in Scripture will persuade you, as your current view is not actually in God's Word and you are seem very content with it.
Before I could truly see "what is written" as complete and perfect (even though I thought at the time I was) I had to come to terms with the fact Penal Substitution Theory was not actually in the text of Scripture. I suspect the sane will prove the same with you, brother.
But here is one of many passages (passages that are inadvertently, probably unknowingly, denied by Penal Substitution Theorists):
Romans 3:21–26 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus."
God gave the law and it is the law that condemns us. The wages of that law breaking required the sentence of death. God the Son didn't die because of what he did. He died because of what I did. As my Passover substitute, he received the death that the death angel was going to give to me. Jesus took the judgment from the Father that I was supposed to receive.
Hebrews expresses that Jesus is greater than all things. Greater than angels, greater than Moses, greater than the Levitical priests, greater than the High Priest. It also expresses that Jesus is that Lamb which was slain.
Hebrews 10:8-14
When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
I can see you are set like a rock on this subject. You, and others, can believe as you wish. What I know is what I read in scripture. Jesus paid my debt and set me free.
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