Be On Guard against false doctrine.....False Ideas on PSA considered

[Iconoclast]

Clearly Gods wrath has been revealed.
Men have broken Gods law.
If only there was a way to have this wrath turned away.
Has God Himself given any indications of how His broken law can be jusyly satisfied?
Maybe we can find a verse somewhere that gives such an indication.
Gal4:4 seems to answer this issue.
Maybe we can investigate that verse.

 

[JesusFan]

@Iconoclast ,

I believe you are a great source for Reformed teachers (particularly antiquated teachers). This is a complement. If I want to know about John Gill then you would be my go to member. Same with Murray.

But when it comes to testing doctrine we are commanded to go to Scripture, not teachers we like.

Do you know of say passages that state Christ experienced God's wrath?

Jesus experienced exactly the same we all were due to have experienced, the wrath, being forsaken, and being judged!

 

[JesusFan]

I am still establishing the truth biblically. We see Gods wrath revealed against all unrighteousness..believers and unbelievers alike are guilty before God and are children of wrath even as others....Romans leads up to Jesus as our propitiation. He must have done something to turn away the wrath that we were under. Believers have no Condemnation In Christ Rom 8;1....there is a reason for that condidtion that believers enjoy. Wonder what that is?

Still waiting on JonC answer to that very question!

 

[agedman]

Moses was one of the greatest types of Christ Jesus in scripture; we read this;
23 Therefore he said that he would destroy them,

had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach,

to turn away His wrath, lest he should destroy them.
preceptaustin;
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed (Present tense) from heaven against all ungodliness & unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness." (NASB: Lockman)

Greek: Apokaluptetai (3SPPI) gar orge theou ap' ouranou epi pasan asebeian kai adikian anthropon ton ten aletheian en adikia| katechontin, (PAPMPG)

Amplified: For God's [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth and make it inoperative. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)

NLT: But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. (NLT - Tyndale House)

Phillips: Now the holy anger of God is disclosed from Heaven against the godlessness and evil of those men who render truth dumb and inoperative by their wickedness. (Phillips: Touchstone)

Wuest: For there is revealed God’s wrath from heaven upon every lack of reverence and upon every unrighteousness of men who in unrighteousness are holding down the truth.

Young's Literal: for revealed is the wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety and unrighteousness of men, holding down the truth in unrighteousness.

A T Robertson explains it this way…

Note in Romans Paul's use of gar, now argumentative, now explanatory, now both as here. There is a parallel and antecedent revelation (see Romans 1:17) of God's wrath corresponding to the revelation of God's righteousness, this an unwritten revelation, but plainly made known. Orgē is from orgaō, to teem, to swell. It is the temper of God towards sin, not rage, but the wrath of reason and law (Shedd). The revelation of God's righteousness in the gospel was necessary because of the failure of men to attain it without it, for God's wrath justly rested upon all both Gentiles (Ro 1:18-32) and Jews (Romans 2:1-3:20).

John Piper explains for by asking…

Why does Paul introduce Ro 1:18 with the word "for" or "because"? He does this in order to show that everything he is going to say about sin is meant to support the GOSPEL of Ro 1:17. He does not mention the gospel for the sake of sin. He deals with sin for the sake of the GOSPEL.

UNDERSTANDING SIN IS THE FOUNDATION
THAT UPHOLDS THE PRECIOUSNESS OF THE GOSPEL,
NOT VICE VERSA.

And this presents that God HAS to pour wrath out upon the Son in what manner?

In FACT it shows just the opposite.

Moses as YOU stated is a type of Christ - He turned the wrath AWAY yet HE did not suffer the wrath.

There is no lack of supporting the Gospel in what @JonC and I have been presenting.

Such a conflict is occurring only because those who hold to PSA are being confronted with the lack of Scripture support for that thinking.

 

[agedman]

Moule - It must, of course, always be remembered that the "wrath of God" is the wrath of a Judge (Ed: Not an imperfect worldly "judge" but a perfect Righteous Judge! Ps 7:11 - indignation = orge in Lxx). In its inmost secret (wrath-orge) is the very opposite of an arbitrary outburst (Ed: That is thumos), being the eternal repulsion of evil by good (Ed: God Whose essence is Good). (Ibid)

3709) (orge from orgaô = to teem, to swell) conveys the picture of a swelling which eventually bursts, and thus describes an anger that proceeds from one’s settled nature. Orge does not refer to uncontrollable anger to which men are so prone but to God's settled indignation and controlled passionate hostile feeling toward sin in all its various manifestations.

Settled indignation means that God’s holiness cannot and will not coexist with sin in any form whatsoever.

Orge refers to to an inner, deep resentment that seethes and smolders. Orge as used of God refers to His constant and controlled indignation toward sin, while thumos (which originally referred to violent movements of air, water, etc., and consequently came to mean “well up” or “boil up”) refers more to a passionate outburst of rage. Thumos type anger represents an agitated, vehement anger that rushes along relentlessly. The root meaning has to do with moving rapidly and was used of a man’s breathing violently while pursuing an enemy in great rage!

Orge is not the momentary, emotional, and often uncontrolled anger (thumos) to which human beings are prone. Orge is used primarily of God's holy, righteous wrath but occasionally refers to the wrath of men (see Ephesians 4:31+)

Orge refers to to an inner, deep resentment that seethes and smolders. Orge as used of God refers to His constant and controlled indignation toward sin, while thumos (which originally referred to violent movements of air, water, etc., and consequently came to mean “well up” or “boil up”) refers more to a passionate outburst of rage. Thumos type anger represents an agitated, vehement anger that rushes along relentlessly. The root meaning has to do with moving rapidly and was used of a man’s breathing violently while pursuing an enemy in great rage!

And this is supposed to be negative toward what @JonC and I have posted?

I see absolutely no conflict other than what you posted does NOT support PSA thinking.

It ACTUALLY supports what @JonC and I have been presenting.

Do you not see that?

Why?

Is it that you cling to PSA and that error is preventing you from seeing that even what you present supports what @JonC and I have posted and not PSA.

Reminds me of the statement of our Lord when in the treasury of the temple.

 

[agedman]

God’s settled opposition to and displeasure with sin

God’s wrath is his holy hatred of all that is unholy. It is His righteous indignation at everything that is unrighteous. It is the temper of God towards sin. It is not God's uncontrollable rage, vindictive bitterness or a losing of His temper, but the wrath of righteous reason and holy law.

Orge - 36x in 34v - Usage: anger(6), wrath(30). (KJV translates it also indignation and vengeance).

Mt 3:7; Mark 3:5; Lk 3:7; 21:23; Jn 3:36; Ro 1:18; 2:5, 8; 3:5; 4:15; 5:9; 9:22; 12:19; 13:4, 5; Ep 2:3; 4:31; 5:6; Col 3:6, 8; 1Th 1:10; 2:16; 5:9; 1Ti 2:8; Heb 3:11; 4:3; James 1:19, 20; Re 6:16, 17; 11:18; 14:10; 16:19; 19:15

Certainly, God does and will pour out wrath upon the rebellious.

Do you sin? John says we do. Is God's wrath poured out upon you?

How much less is God's wrath then poured out upon the "Son of Righteousness."

You are only proving what @JonC and I have been posting is even more accurate.

Wrath is poured out upon the UNGODLY and our Lord was NEVER ungodly.

 

[agedman]

I do agree with Ryle here, that is why I posted it.
Trusted guides are not infallible.
Like the Bereans examined even the Apostles.
i like the confessional statement on this;
Chapter 1: Of the Holy Scriptures
1._____ The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.
( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalms 19:1-3; Hebrews 1:1; Proverbs 22:19-21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19,20 )

That being said, to cast off Godly teachers and lean upon your own understanding is quite foolish, especially when a person claims that {God spoke to them or instructed them that everyone else has totally missed it}

And this disproves what @JonC and I have been posting?

We have posted more concerning Scriptures and more Scriptures then any one else on these threads.

We hold Scriptures as the final authority. Do you? You have in the past.

So when we show that the Scriptures have not and do not support PSA, and we show why they do not, and quote others who have proclaimed that very claim - who do yo believe? We who have shown from Scriptures or those who would ply the scriptures with philosophical arguments that pervert God's Holy Word?

 

[agedman]

We need to examine the wrath of God as some ignore it when it has to do with Gods wrath against those who happen to be believers now. Where did that wrath go?

• Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology
  Wrath of God

The Scriptures use various terms to express God's emotions that are in contrast to his love for, pleasure in, and satisfaction with his people. In the Old Testament at least six terms are used to express his negative reactions to humanity, particularly to his covenant people. These terms, all of which express varied shades or degrees of wrath, anger, displeasure, or vexation, are the following: anph [ Hebrews 10:31 (NAS)
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

In order to understand what the Scriptures reveal concerning the anger and wrath of God, it is necessary to consider his character, the contexts in which they are spoken of, and with whom God is displeased, angry, or wroth.

God is holy; he totally and completely distances himself from sin, evil, corruption, and the resultant filth and guilt. He maintains his purity and rejects, fights against, and destroys that which would offend, attack, or undo his holiness and love.
Hence, God's anger and wrath must always be seen in relation to his maintaining and defending his attributes of love and holiness, as well as his righteousness and justice. The emotion or passion that moves God to this maintaining and defending is expressed by the terms "displeasure, " "indignation, " "anger, " and "wrath." A consequence of his wrath is vengeance, punishment, and death.

The wrath of God has been revealed throughout the entire history of humanity. It was implied when Adam was warned he would die if he disbelieved and disobeyed God (Genesis 2:17 (NAS)

The revelation of God's wrath was clearly demonstrated by means of the plagues of Egypt and the destruction of Pharaoh's army (Exodus 15:7 (NAS)


). Moses warned of the consequences of God's wrath for Israel if as a people they broke the covenant (Deuteronomy 11:17 (NAS)

13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, And the earth will be shaken from its place At the fury of the Lord of hosts In the day of His burning anger.
The wrath of God that the New Testament speaks of is to be expressed in judgments on a wicked, rebellious covenant people (Matthew 3:7 (NAS)
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
7 So he began saying to the crowds who were going out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,


All people are under wrath (Ephesians 2:3 (NAS)
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Ephesians 2:3 ), and the only way to escape this wrath, which is sure to be in full and fierce force in the judgment day, is to believe in Jesus Christ who bore the curse of the covenant and endured the wrath of God when he was crucified. This same Christ will execute divine wrath and vengeance to its fullest degree in judgment day (Revelation 6:16-17 (NAS)

Again, this post does not disprove anything @JonC and I have posted!

In fact it again supports exactly what we have been presenting.

For example: Did we not already share that God's wrath is always toward the ungodly rebellious, who mock, and make images?
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,...

The PSA would present the very Fullness of God - the Son as "ungodly and unrighteous."

That is error of heretical proportions and I rarely ever use the word heretic.

 

[agedman]

Jesus experienced exactly the same we all were due to have experienced, the wrath, being forsaken, and being judged!

The Scriptures, please.

Such a statement is helpless, useless, without foundation, and a lie without Scripture support.

 

[agedman]

The "whole world does not have their sins propitiated...only the elect found anywhere in the world.Jesus is the only source of propitiation.

Ok, think through what you just wrote.

The elect were elect from the foundation of the world. You and I would agree.

Christ was slain at the foundation of the world. You and I would agree.

Then if Christ in human time bore OUR sins, took upon Himself OUR sins, then in what manner was there a reason for the Wrath of God?

WE were already in the care of God, from the foundations of the world.

We were already HIS from the foundation of the world.

There was no wrath for us, no condemnation for us, for we are in Christ when He died for US.

The PSA is in error, Iconoclast.

It is direct conflict with the principles of Calvinistic thinking! The error has blinded some, hindering them from the truth.

 

[agedman]

Jesus experienced exactly the same we all were due to have experienced, the wrath, being forsaken, and being judged!

Again,

Without Scripture support this can only be taken as opinion, error, foolishness, or whatever.

You need to support your statements by referencing the Scriptures, not just spouting like old faithful.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Ok, think through what you just wrote.

The elect were elect from the foundation of the world. You and I would agree.

Christ was slain at the foundation of the world. You and I would agree.

Then if Christ in human time bore OUR sins, took upon Himself OUR sins, then in what manner was there a reason for the Wrath of God?

WE were already in the care of God, from the foundations of the world.

We were already HIS from the foundation of the world.

There was no wrath for us, no condemnation for us, for we are in Christ when He died for US.

The PSA is in error, Iconoclast.

It is direct conflict with the principles of Calvinistic thinking! The error has blinded some, hindering them from the truth.

According to what you said, the preaching of the Gospel is a waste of time

 

[agedman]

I am still establishing the truth biblically. We see Gods wrath revealed against all unrighteousness..believers and unbelievers alike are guilty before God and are children of wrath even as others....Romans leads up to Jesus as our propitiation. He must have done something to turn away the wrath that we were under. Believers have no Condemnation In Christ Rom 8;1....there is a reason for that condidtion that believers enjoy. Wonder what that is?

Still waiting on JonC answer to that very question!

@JonC and I have answered that question countless times in the threads.

If you didn't believe us the first times, why keep repeating ourselves.

Both @Jon and I support the view of Scriptures. We have used Scriptures throughout these threads. Neither of us are strangers to Scriptures.

We both taught and presented PSA until we became aware by the work of God that it is error.

We have shown you the error.

What you do with that information is between you and the Scriptures.

God had no need to pour the wrath upon the Son.
The OT sacrifice and offerings prove that statement as true - we have spent time in the OT showing as much.
The NT does not present such but places the pouring of wrath upon the ungodly - we have spent time in the NT showing as much.

We have explored the Scriptures on this topic, and yet some desire that our Lord suffer wrath from God.

Not a single verse has been produced to support such thinking. Rather, verses concerning wrath, the evidence of God's wrath, and to WHOM the wrath is intended have been repositioned to include the very member of the Trinity, the very Fullness of God, the very God. This is not good.

Christ said, "I came to do the will of the Father."
The will of the Father did not include the Son having wrath by the Father poured on HIM.

That would violate the parable of the owner of the field who sent many servants (prophets) to collect from the caretakers. They abused and killed them (prophets) all. Finally the owner sent his own son (Christ) saying they will honor him (Christ). But they (the caretakers) abused and killed the son to claim the ground as their own. What will that owner then do to those caretakers when he returns? (This is from Matthew 21)

The owner didn't dump on the son. Neither did God dump on His Son. The owner's wrath will dump on those ungodly - REV 16.

The Scriptures in statement and type does most certainly present the truth.

PSA presents error.

 

[agedman]

According to what you said, the preaching of the Gospel is a waste of time

Nope.

For it is by the preaching of the gospel that those who are given to hear will hear and respond.

But that is for a different thread.

 

[Silverhair]

The "whole world does not have their sins propitiated...only the elect found anywhere in the world.Jesus is the only source of propitiation.

You are reading your theology into the text. And please remember Sola Scriptura.
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
So tell me what word or words mean elect? And what word or words make His propitiation limited?

 

[Iconoclast]

Ok, think through what you just wrote.

The elect were elect from the foundation of the world. You and I would agree.

Christ was slain at the foundation of the world. You and I would agree.

Then if Christ in human time bore OUR sins, took upon Himself OUR sins, then in what manner was there a reason for the Wrath of God?

WE were already in the care of God, from the foundations of the world.

We were already HIS from the foundation of the world.

There was no wrath for us, no condemnation for us, for we are in Christ when He died for US.

The PSA is in error, Iconoclast.

It is direct conflict with the principles of Calvinistic thinking! The error has blinded some, hindering them from the truth.

I do agree with your first two points as they are clearly written.
Let's pause for a bit on your 3rd statement.
What do you mean exactly when you say....in human time
HE BORE OUR SINS?
TOOK UPON HIMSELF OUR SINS?

In what way did He...bore our sins?
You say....He took upon Himself our sins.
How? In what way?
How?
What did He do with the wrath due to each of those sins?
You started out with revealed truth...election before the world was.
That does not mean we were not born children of wrath even as others.

We were guilty sinners.
Now we agree on rom8:1...no condemnation In Christ.

So walk us through this.Election before time is certain....but God uses means to seek and save the lost.They have not always been saved.
Jesus told zaccheus this day is salvation come to your house.
Calvinists are not hyper Calvinists.

Walk us through this process.This is where we are saying neither one of you have answered this satisfactory.

 

[Iconoclast]

You are reading your theology into the text. And please remember Sola Scriptura.
1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
So tell me what word or words mean elect? And what word or words make His propitiation limited?

Hello SH
Easy...first he says our sins.
That is those who have already believed.The wrath of God has been turned away.
Then he says....not for ours only.....but also for the whole world.
The scope of the gospel is not Israel only....it goes worldwide
Everyone believing anywhere in the world will have Jesus as their propitiation.
Now I would submit that the only people worldwide who will savingly believe are those elected before time.Jesus will seek and save all His sheep.
Compare Jn11:49-52...not for this nation only but all who are scattered worldwide..

Is this helpful for you?

 

[JonC]

According to what you said, the preaching of the Gospel is a waste of time

No. According to what he is saying it is the gospel unadulterated by extrabiblical mythology that should be preached.

 

[Iconoclast]

And this presents that God HAS to pour wrath out upon the Son in what manner?

In FACT it shows just the opposite.

Moses as YOU stated is a type of Christ - He turned the wrath AWAY yet HE did not suffer the wrath.

There is no lack of supporting the Gospel in what @JonC and I have been presenting.

Such a conflict is occurring only because those who hold to PSA are being confronted with the lack of Scripture support for that thinking.

The purpose of the Mosrs post was to demonstrate that God gas an active wrath against all sin, believer or unbeliever.

 

[agedman]

The purpose of the Mosrs post was to demonstrate that God gas an active wrath against all sin, believer or unbeliever.

“There is therefore No Condemnation to those in Christ Jesus”.

the Wrath of God is appointed specifically for the ungodly, just as I and JonC have posted.

Is that not validated in the opening of Romans?