Featured Be On Guard against false doctrine.....False Ideas on PSA considered

agedman,

You say you do not avoid questions; Here is what I asked you;

I do agree with your first two points as they are clearly written.
Let's pause for a bit on your 3rd statement.


What do you mean exactly when you say....in human time
HE BORE OUR SINS?
TOOK UPON HIMSELF OUR SINS?

In what way did He...bore our sins?
You say....He took upon Himself our sins.
How? In what way?
How?


What did He do with the wrath due to each of those sins?


You started out with revealed truth...election before the world was.
That does not mean we were not born children of wrath even as others.

We were guilty sinners.
Now we agree on rom8:1...no condemnation In Christ.

So walk us through this.Election before time is certain....but God uses means to seek and save the lost.
They have not always been saved.
Jesus told Zaccheus this day is salvation come to your house.
Calvinists are not hyper Calvinists.

Walk us through this process.

This is where we are saying neither one of you have answered this satisfactory.

How do we go from children of wrath, to no condemnation in Christ.
We know there is new birth, but what removes that wrath?

 

You say you do not avoid questions; Here is what I asked you;

I do agree with your first two points as they are clearly written.
Let's pause for a bit on your 3rd statement.


What do you mean exactly when you say....in human time
HE BORE OUR SINS?
TOOK UPON HIMSELF OUR SINS?

In what way did He...bore our sins?
You say....He took upon Himself our sins.
How? In what way?
How?


What did He do with the wrath due to each of those sins?


You started out with revealed truth...election before the world was.
That does not mean we were not born children of wrath even as others.

We were guilty sinners.
Now we agree on rom8:1...no condemnation In Christ.

So walk us through this.Election before time is certain....but God uses means to seek and save the lost.
They have not always been saved.
Jesus told Zaccheus this day is salvation come to your house.
Calvinists are not hyper Calvinists.

Walk us through this process.

This is where we are saying neither one of you have answered this satisfactory.

How do we go from children of wrath, to no condemnation in Christ.
We know there is new birth, but what removes that wrath?

 

You say you do not avoid questions; Here is what I asked you;

I do agree with your first two points as they are clearly written.
Let's pause for a bit on your 3rd statement.


What do you mean exactly when you say....in human time
HE BORE OUR SINS?
TOOK UPON HIMSELF OUR SINS?

In what way did He...bore our sins?
You say....He took upon Himself our sins.
How? In what way?
How?


What did He do with the wrath due to each of those sins?


You started out with revealed truth...election before the world was.
That does not mean we were not born children of wrath even as others.

We were guilty sinners.
Now we agree on rom8:1...no condemnation In Christ.

So walk us through this.Election before time is certain....but God uses means to seek and save the lost.
They have not always been saved.
Jesus told Zaccheus this day is salvation come to your house.
Calvinists are not hyper Calvinists.

Walk us through this process.

This is where we are saying neither one of you have answered this satisfactory.

How do we go from children of wrath, to no condemnation in Christ.
We know there is new birth, but what removes that wrath?

 

Gal4:4 preceptaustin
SETTING FREE BY
PAYING A PRICE

One English dictionary defines redeem as "to recover possession or ownership of by payment of a price or service." Webster has "to buy back; to free from what distresses or harms: such as to free from captivity by payment of ransom; to extricate from or help to overcome something detrimental."

So that - term of purpose - Gives the purpose for which God sent forth His Son and it was that He might be the Redeemer of men in bondage to the Law and sin. In Galatians 4:4 Paul

He might redeem those who were under the Law - The implication of being under the Law is also of being under the curse (Gal 3:13). See also Ro 2:12 Ro 3:19 1 Cor 9:20, 21 Gal 3:10, 23. Like all men, Jesus was obligated to obey God’s law. Unlike anyone else, however, He perfectly obeyed that law (Jn 8:46; 2Co 5:21; Heb 4:15; Heb 7:26; 1 Pe 2:22; 1 Jn 3:5). In Paul's day a slave could be purchased in a Roman city and the purchaser could either keep the slave for himself or he could set the slave free. Jesus was our "Purchaser" Who paid the price to set us free. The paradox is that while we are now at liberty, we are also His possession (Titus 2:14).

Might redeem (1805)(exagorazo from ek = out or from + agorazo = acquire in exchange for money with result that whatever has been bought is buyer's possession <> agora = market place) means literally to buy out of (ek = out of) the market place. The idea is not just to redeem but to completely redeem. Exagorazo is used only 4x in NT - Gal. 3:13; Gal. 4:5; Eph. 5:16; Col. 4:5. Paul has already used this verb in Galatians 3

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us–for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”– (Gal 3:13+)


NOTE - Redemption. Three ideas are involved in the doctrine of redemption:
(1) paying the ransom with the blood of Christ (1 Co 6:20+; Rev 5:9+);

(2) removal from the curse of the law (Gal 3:13+; Gal 4:5)

(3) release from the bondage of sin into the freedom of grace (here and in 1 Pe 1:18+). Redemption is through Jesus' blood; i.e., through the death of Christ (Col 1:14+).

Jesus had to take on flesh and blood in order to qualify as our Kinsman-Redeemer (our Goel) and thus even be able to pay the ransom price:

1 Peter 1:18; 19+ knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 2:14-15+ Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.

Hebrews 2:17+ Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God,
to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Sent forth (1821)(exapostello from ek = out, forth + apostello = to send away) means to send away or send forth as on a mission (Acts 17:14, Acts 7:12, Acts 11:22). Both here and Gal 4:4 the sending forth is a divine mission from the Father to fallen men to save them (Gal 4:4) and then to sanctify them (Gal 4:6), for the Spirit in the redeemed is the "Power Source" for daily living, daily sanctification (2 Th 2:13, 1 Pe 1:2). Are you learning to lean on the everlasting arms of the Spirit of God for the power to live the Christian life? If not, you are likely experiencing frustration, failure, futility, etc. Our new supernatural life necessitates daily dependence on God's supernatural Source, the Spirit of His Son!

 

rom4:25 preceptaustin;

Satisfaction is used as a synonym for propitiation, the concept of satisfaction being that the moral requirement of God has been completely met by the death of His Son on behalf of the believer and therefore has satisfied or propitiated God.

Hilasterion means a sacrifice that bears God's wrath to the end and in so doing changes God's wrath toward us into favor.

God has set the sinner free through Christ, but He has not done so by setting aside the rules.

He has set the sinner free in Christ by satisfying the demands of God’s justice in Christ.

Due to sin, a penalty was to be meted out and a price was to be paid. Christ paid that price and suffered that penalty (“redemption”). God’s divine wrath had to be appeased, due to man’s sin; Christ has appeased that wrath (“propitiation”).

A closely related word is hilasmos which refers to that which propitiates or that which appeases. John uses this word writing that Jesus

"Himself is the propitiation (hilasmos - appeasement, satisfaction) for our sins… " (1 Jn 2:2-note)

The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross satisfied the demands of God’s holiness for the punishment of sin. So Jesus propitiated or satisfied God.

 

MacDonald - This means that by dying for us, He freed us from the guilt of our sins and restored us to God by providing the needed satisfaction and by removing every barrier to fellowship (Ed note: compare to "atonement" = "at-one-ment").
God can show mercy to us because Christ has satisfied the claims of justice. It is not often that an advocate (or lawyer) pays for his client’s sins; yet that is what our Lord has done, and most remarkable of all, He paid for them by the sacrifice of Himself. (Believer's Bible Commentary)

Propitiation is not placating a vengeful God but, rather, it is satisfying the righteousness and just wrath of a holy God, thereby making it possible for Him to show mercy righteously.

God can now be just (His law says sin demands death) and can at the same time be the Justifier dealing with men graciously and benevolently.

The concepts of “redemption” and “propitiation” are used to demonstrate and draw our attention to the justice of God.

God has set the sinner free through Christ (justified by grace through faith), but He has not done so by setting aside the rules (His justice). Instead, God has set the sinner free in Christ by satisfying the demands of His justice in Christ. Sin incurs a penalty which must be meted out. Christ paid the price of the "debt" our sins had accrued on our personal account and suffered the required penalty in our place. Thus He paid the price to secure our redemption or liberation as the result of paying the price in full (cp Jn 19:30). God’s divine wrath had to be appeased, due to our sin and Christ appeased God's wrath (“propitiation”).

 

Hilasterion describes the "mercy seat" or cover of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies. It was upon this "mercy seat" that the High Priest would sprinkle the blood of the sacrifice once each year on the Day of Atonement (described in Lev 16:1-34-note), which corresponds to the modern day Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur that is held on the tenth day of the seventh month, Tishri (7th month of the Jewish year corresponding to September/October). On that day only would the high priest enter within the inner veil bearing the blood of the sin offering (cf. Heb 9:7-note).

A second goat was released as an escape goat to symbolize the total removal of sin (aza'zel = scapegoat). This solemn day was the only day of fasting prescribed for Israel. It was celebrated by a special sin offering for the whole nation. All the sins of the people were brought symbolically to the Holy of Holies, where blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat as a sacrifice to atone (supply satisfaction for - atonement = making of God and sinners “at one” by the offering of sacrifice and providing a way for humankind to come back into harmonious relation with Him) for them.

Atonement is the act by which God restores a relationship of harmony and unity between Himself and human beings. The word can be broken into three parts that express this great truth in simple but profound terms: “at-one-ment.” Although Old Testament believers were truly forgiven and received genuine atonement through animal sacrifice, the New Testament clearly states that during the Old Testament period God’s justice was not served

“For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins” (Heb 10:4-note).

Atonement was possible

because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed (Ro 3:25).

However, God’s justice was served in the death of Jesus Christ as a substitute, Hebrews recording that

not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He (both as our Substitute Sacrifice and as our Great High Priest) entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption (lutrosis - ransoming and release from penalty, power and ultimately some day from the presence and pleasure of sin) (Heb 9:12 - note).

And for this reason He (Jesus Christ our Great High Priest) is the Mediator of a new covenant, in order that since a death has taken place for the redemption (apolutrosis - payment of a price to ransom and emancipate slaves of sin) of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. (Heb 9:15-note)

 

Constable - There are two possible meanings of “propitiation” (NASB) or “sacrifice of propitiation” (NIV). The Greek word (hilasterion) is an adjective that can substitute for a noun. It means having placating or expiating force.

It could refer to Jesus Christ as the place where God satisfied His wrath and removed our sins. This is the substantival usage translated “propitiation.” In favor of this interpretation is the use of this Greek word to translate the mercy seat on the ark of the covenant (Ex 25:17, LXX; Heb. 9:5). However, it seems more natural to take hilasterion as referring to Jesus Christ as the sacrifice that satisfied God’s wrath and removed our sins. This is the normal adjectival use translated “sacrifice of atonement” (cf. 1 John 2:2; 4:10). Jesus Christ was the sacrifice, but the place where God made atonement was the Cross. (Romans 3 Commentary)

The Hebrew word for "mercy seat", kapporet, "is not related to mercy and of course was not a seat. The word is derived from the root “to atone.” The Greek equivalent in the LXX is usually hilasterion, “place or object of propitiation,” a word which is applied to Christ in Ro 3:25. The translation “mercy seat” does not sufficiently express the fact that the lid of the ark was the place where the blood was sprinkled on the day of atonement. “Place of atonement” would perhaps be more expressive." (Harris, R. L., Harris, R. L., Archer, G. L., & Waltke, B. K. Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament Moody Press)

 

I am not sure they read with comprehension'

 

Hilaskomai which is comparatively rare, occurs as a translation of kipher to cover sin, Ps. 64:3; 77:38; 78:9; AV, purge away, forgive, pardon. Of salach, to bear away as a burden, 2Ki 5:18; Ps 24:11: AV, forgive, pardon. It is used with the accusative (direct objective) case, marking the sin, or with the dative (indirect objective), as be conciliated to our sins.

Exilaskomai mostly represents kipher to cover, and is more common than the simple verb. Thus, purge the altar, Ezek 43:26; cleanse the sanctuary, Ezek 45:20; reconcile the house, Da 9:24. It is found with the accusative case of that which is cleansed; with the preposition peri = concerning, as “for your sin,” Ex 32:30; with the preposition huper = on behalf of, AV, for, Ezek 45:17; absolutely, to make an atonement, Lv 16:17; with the preposition apo = from, as “cleansed from the blood,” Nu 35:33. There are but two instances of the accusative of the person propitiated: appease him, Ge 32:20; pray before (propitiate) the Lord, Zech 7:2.

Hilasterion AV, propitiation, is almost always used in the Old Testament of the mercy-seat or golden cover of the ark, and this is its meaning in Heb. 9:5, the only other passage of the New Testament in which it is found. In Ezek 43:14, 17, 20, it means a ledge round a large altar, and is rendered settle in AV; Rev., ledge, in margin.

This term has been unduly pressed into the sense of expiatory sacrifice. In the case of the kindred verbs, the dominant Old-Testament sense is not propitiation in the sense of some. thing offered to placate or appease anger; but atonement or reconciliation, through the covering, and so getting rid of the sin which stands between God and man. The thrust of the idea is upon the sin or uncleanness, not upon the offended party. Hence the frequent interchange with hagiazo to sanctify, and katharizo = to cleanse. See Ezek 43:26, where exilasontai = shall purge, and kathariousin = shall purify, are used coordinately. See also Ex 30:10, of the altar of incense: “Aaron shall make an atonement (exilasetai) upon the horns of it — with the blood of the sin-offering of atonement” (katharismou = purification). Compare Lv 16:20. The Hebrew terms are also used coordinately.

Our translators frequently render the verb kaphar by reconcile, Lv 6:30; 16:20; Ezek 45:20. In Lv 8:15, Moses put blood upon the horns of the altar and cleansed (ekatharise) the altar, and sanctified (hagiasen) it, to make reconciliation (ton exilasasthai) upon it. Compare Ezek 45:15, 17; Da 9:24.

The verb and its derivatives occur where the ordinary idea of expiation is excluded. As applied to an altar or to the walls of a house (Lv 14:48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53), this idea could have no force, because these inanimate things, though ceremonially unclean, could have no sin to be expiated. Moses, when he went up to make atonement for the idolatry at Sinai, offered no sacrifice, but only intercession. See also the case of Korah, Num. 16:46; the cleansing of leprosy and of mothers after childbirth, Lev. 14:1-20; 12:7; 15:30; the reformation of Josiah, 2Chr 34; the fasting and confession of Ezra, Ezra 10:1-15; the offering of the Israelite army after the defeat of Midian. They brought bracelets, rings, etc., to make an atonement (exilasasthai) before the Lord; not expiatory, but a memorial, Nu 31:50, 51, 52, 53, 54. The Passover was in no sense expiatory; but Paul says,

“Christ our Passover was sacrificed for us; therefore purge out (ekkatharate) the old leaven. Let us keep the feast with sincerity and truth;” 1Co 5:7, 8.

In the Old Testament the idea of sacrifice as in itself a propitiation continually recedes before that of the personal character lying back of sacrifice, and which alone gives virtue to it. See 1Sa 15:22; Ps 40:6, 7, 8, 9, 10; 50:8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 23; 51:16, 17; Is 1:11-18-note; Jer 7:21, 22, 23; Amos 5:21, 22, 23, 24; Mic 6:6, 7, 8. This idea does not recede in the Old Testament to be re-emphasized in the New. On the contrary, the New Testament emphasizes the recession, and lays the stress upon the cleansing and life giving effect of the sacrifice of Christ. See John 1:29; Col. 1:20, 21, 22-note; Heb. 9:14-note; Heb 10:19, 20, 21-note; 1Pe 2:24-note; 1Jn 1:7; 4:10, 11, 12, 13.

 

The New Testament picks up this idea of propitiation in 1Jn 2:2,

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

The phrase "atoning sacrifice" translates the normal Greek word of propitiation. By the offering of himself, Jesus turned away God’s wrath forever. Let me give you three truths to summarize the effects of propitiation: (1) Because Jesus Christ died, God’s justice is now satisfied.

(2) Because Jesus Christ died, God’s wrath has now been turned away. The price for sin has been paid.

(3) Because Jesus Christ died, God’s mercy is now freely available to anyone who wants it. Justice satisfied … the price paid … mercy available. What an awesome thought. God’s wrath is real, but so is his mercy. He satisfied His Own wrath by offering his own Son on the cross. "Amazing love, how can it be, that thou, my God, shouldst die for me?" (Read full Sermon)

 

Here is what we see some doing on this board;

A WORD OF CAUTION REGARDING
"PROPITIATION"

Note that many theologians of the "liberal persuasion" strongly object to the truth that Jesus bore God's wrath against sin.

In general, they tend to be uncomfortable with the truth of wrath, judgment, and hell, and so have fallaciously reasoned that "propitiation" is a translation that relegates theology to the mythology of the Greeks and slanders the character of God.

This thinking has led these liberal theologians to translate hilasterion as "expiation", as for example in the Revised Standard Version ("whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood,"). Expiation means an action that cleanses from sin but includes no concept of appeasing God's wrath! To be sure the truth conveyed by "expiation" is certainly included in hilasterion, but as you can discern, expiation is not an adequate or accurate rendering of the truth conveyed by this Greek word.

It is also notable that the NIV misses the true meaning, choosing to translate hilasterion as "atonement". In fairness, the NIV does have a marginal note which is more accurate - it reads

"as the one who would turn aside his wrath, taking away sin".

The difference between the doctrines of propitiation in Christianity and in Greek mythology is bound up in the character of God Himself. Being holy, perfect, and immutable, the living God is never ruled by changing moods as were the so-called gods of Greco-Roman mythology. Consequently, God's wrath is a settled disposition against evil. The just demands of God's holiness for the punishment and exclusion of sin must be satisfied or propitiated.

Propitiation is the work of Christ on the Cross in which He met the demands of the righteousness of God against sin, satisfying the requirements of God's justice and canceling the guilt of man's sin!

 

"agedman,
Thanks for your response.

Those who looked in faith had them paid by Jesus once for all time sacrifice, thats what happened, they were punished In Him.

They looked forward to the cross Hebrews 10 is clear on that.

.

lol.no. we go from children of wrath, to no condemnation, because our sin bearer, took our sin and its wrath away, by paying the price on our behalf Suggesting we get there without Jesus hanging on the cross as our propitiation is like Peter suggesting jesus not go to the cross.Jesus told him get behind me Satan....you two are close to that.

yes..no wrath for us IN JESUS...HE TOOK IT UPON HIMSELF.

,
a FULL CUP OF WRATH WAS AT THE CROSS