Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So what you , Reformed, Austin & Iconoclast have just done is disagree with the bible. Why do you hold to mans thinking and not to what the Holy Spirit has said.
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Why did Christ say he would draw all men to himself.
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So what you , Reformed, Austin & Iconoclast have just done is disagree with the bible. Why do you hold to mans thinking and not to what the Holy Spirit has said.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
That is a concept that calvinists seem to miss.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
That is you reading your calvinism into the bible.
My evaluation of the comments of the Reformed that I have engaged thus far on this thread is that they deny the words that I have quoted out of the King James Bible. I quoted John the Baptist saying that he was looking at the Lamb of God that would take away the sin of the world and that was pictured by every Passover Lamb that was offered by the Jewish people for the previous 1500 years.
The question for the Reformed; did John the Baptist get it wrong? Was it the sin of the elect or the sin of the world that the Lamb would take away?
The historical setting for that passage was before the Lamb was slain. Was the sin of the world or the elect, which ever is selected, taken away at that time?
Another passage I quoted that is categorically denied to be true by the Reformed that I have engaged on this thread. It is Hebrews 9:26, which says; "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (kosmos = planet), but NOW once in the end of the world (aion = age) hath HE APPEARED to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
The question now is did he really put away sin when he appeared in human form as a man and at his crucifixion as the text says, and if not, when did he put away sin?
I quoted 2 Cor 5, which says that Jesus died for all because all were separated by sin and he specifically defined the all in the context as the world = the kosmos. This is the only qualifier in the text for the world. The world = kosmos is the qualifier for the word "all", and because sin has been taken out of the way and God is reconciled to sinful humanity by Jesus Christ, he is not imputing sin to the account of the sinner while he lives. This is what the text says.
It gives new meaning to the text in Romans 5 that says, "for while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
Attention: the Reformed denies these words and do not believe them. What do they believe? They believe something the text does not say!
Here is the full context in chapter 5 down to chapter 6, which also should be read.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world (the kosmos) unto himself, not imputing their (those in the kosmos) trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
The Corinthians were gentiles, commonly call heathen by the scriptures and inhabitants of the world.
Why do the Reformed deny these plain statements in the scriptures. It puzzles me that they do.
The question for the Reformed; did John the Baptist get it wrong? Was it the sin of the elect or the sin of the world that the Lamb would take away?
The historical setting for that passage was before the Lamb was slain. Was the sin of the world or the elect, which ever is selected, taken away at that time?
Another passage I quoted that is categorically denied to be true by the Reformed that I have engaged on this thread. It is Hebrews 9:26, which says; "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (kosmos = planet), but NOW once in the end of the world (aion = age) hath HE APPEARED to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
The question now is did he really put away sin when he appeared in human form as a man and at his crucifixion as the text says, and if not, when did he put away sin?
I quoted 2 Cor 5, which says that Jesus died for all because all were separated by sin and he specifically defined the all in the context as the world = the kosmos. This is the only qualifier in the text for the world. The world = kosmos is the qualifier for the word "all", and because sin has been taken out of the way and God is reconciled to sinful humanity by Jesus Christ, he is not imputing sin to the account of the sinner while he lives. This is what the text says.
It gives new meaning to the text in Romans 5 that says, "for while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
Attention: the Reformed denies these words and do not believe them. What do they believe? They believe something the text does not say!
Here is the full context in chapter 5 down to chapter 6, which also should be read.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world (the kosmos) unto himself, not imputing their (those in the kosmos) trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
The Corinthians were gentiles, commonly call heathen by the scriptures and inhabitants of the world.
Why do the Reformed deny these plain statements in the scriptures. It puzzles me that they do.
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I just did!
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
The word “draw” (ἑλκύσω G1670) is used here (Joh_6:44) in the same sense as in Joh_12:32. It is not a drawing against but with man’s will (cf Joh_5:40). [see Thayer below "draw" G1670] If (ἑλκύσω) always means “forcibly dragged”, as some people have alluded, then this passage would have to mean that all (πάντας G3956) people are saved!
We are drawn not by force, although powerfully. We are not treated as mere machines. The Father seeks to influence us as rational, accountable beings. He (Joh_6:45) presents the truth of His word to our understandings; makes it sharp to pierce our consciences; touches our hearts with the power of His love.
There is no thought here of force or magic. The term [draw G1670] figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God of Christ which goes out to all (Joh_12:32) but without which no one can come (Joh_6:44). {Theological Dictionary of the New Testament} “little” Kittel
Helkúō G1670 is used by Jesus of the drawing of souls unto Him (Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32, to draw or induce to come). {Spiros Zodhiates, Th.D. The Complete Word Study Dictionary,
AMG International, Inc. Chattanooga, TN 37422, U.S.A. Revised edition, 1993}
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
There in lays the problem, how is a persons free will altered?
The Holy Spirit convicts when a person hears the gospel message.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So you think that when Christ Jesus was raised on the cross it was not so that all men would be drawn to Him?
You made a universal statement, then invoked logic. I have shown you that logic requires you to prove your universal statement that Jesus draws all humans, past, present, and future to himself.
Now, your task is to prove your universal statement. This is logical.
How free were Adam and Eve to enter back into the garden once they were ejected due to sin?
Prove the universal statement that all means every single person that ever lives on earth.
I await your proof.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So your question really is does God save you then give you faith. That's not a biblical view but it is a calvinist one.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Gal 2:16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith
Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Hear the gospel, believe the gospel -- then saved. The bible disagrees with your view Austin, just accept it.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
What does your comment have to do with what I posted? Try to stay on track here.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Try to show that it does not. I trust what the bible says so that would be my proof. Why do you fight against the bible text?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
If you were shown that God wants all to come to faith would you stop with the constant objection that God does not want all saved? I doubt it as you have been shown and you still hold to your non biblical view.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Then they disagree with the bible.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
No they don't, you are just too stubborn to admit you were wrong.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
And are you saying the Spirit convicts everyone? If not, you don't really have a good argument here.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Except John 12:32 is not talking about individuals, so no, it does not necessitate all individuals be saved, and yes it does mean to draw with force. You are simply wrong.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
No they are distinctly different and you are just ignorant of it.
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