Why did Christ say he would draw all men to himself.

[Silverhair]

You are the one not agreeing with the Bible.

You have yet to show me where that is so. Just saying NA NA NA your wrong really does not work. Well it will for a calvinist as that seems to be a standard type of response.

 

[Reformed1689]

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Now you will have a problem with this text as it does not say "desires the elect to be saved". And God is not forcing them to be saved as some on here think. God desires that all be saved but only those that choose to come to Him in faith will be saved.

Calvinists love to thrown out all these over the top comments but you run from the truth of scripture if it does not smack of calvinism. Get your head out of your calvinist books and learn to read the bible for what it says.

I do not have a problem with this text because of verses 1 and 2. It's not talking about individuals.

 

[Reformed1689]

You have yet to show me where that is so. Just saying NA NA NA your wrong really does not work. Well it will for a calvinist as that seems to be a standard type of response.

I actually exegeted John 12:32 and showed you that it is not talking about individuals because of context, something you don't seem to care about. You ignored it and, in fact, you are the one saying NA NA NA.

Does John 12:32 Go Against The Doctrines of Grace? – Reformed Truths

 

[Reformed1689]

You have yet to establish that it does not. The bible is clear but you cannot or rather will not accept what it says.

World means world. In what context does it mean individuals? That burden of proof is on you. You are the one making the claim.

 

[Iconoclast]

Paul says that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners. Period. Not some or most but every single one. Which is why God Commands all people everywhere to repent

It says sinners, not every single sinner.
Jesus will save every sinner the Father
Gave to Him, no more, no less.

 

[AustinC]

Dude WHY do you think that God saved you? You Reformed are so full of nonsense as you suppose that somehow God owes you salvation and damns the majority of the human race!

Praise the Lord that He is NOT "Reformed"

Well your comments are entire rubbish, showing you have absolutely no clue what Reformed theology believes. If you did, you would understand John Newtons words. As it is, you don't understand grace.

1 Amazing grace (how sweet the sound) that saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found,
was blind, but now I see.

2 'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved;
how precious did that grace appear
the hour I first believed!

3 Through many dangers, toils and snares I have already come: 'tis grace has brought me safe thus far, and grace will lead me home.

4 The Lord has promised good to me,
his word my hope secures; he will my shield and portion be as long as life endures.

5 Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail, and mortal life shall cease:
I shall possess, within the veil,
a life of joy and peace.

6 The earth shall soon dissolve like snow, the sun forbear to shine;
but God, who called me here below,
will be forever mine.

 

[Reformed1689]

Paul says that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners. Period. Not some or most but every single one. Which is why God Commands all people everywhere to repent

If he came to save all, all would be saved.

 

[AustinC]

Romans 2:29 - Nevertheless, he is still a Jew and in this chapter and context Paul is addressing the Jew as opposed to the gentile and the law that the Jews boast in as opposed to the conscience that drives the gentiles to do the things by nature that the law demands.

Verse 13 for not the hearers are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 30 which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another.

In verse 29 God is not saying a gentile becomes a Jew, he is not even addressing gentiles here. He is contrasting a Jew who has the law of God and who boasts about keeping the law by the power of the flesh, works, and the one who keeps the law because of the circumcision of the heart, circumcision, the physical figure for the indwelling Spirit with the flesh cut away who leads the spiritual Jew who has been born again. This is the Jew God recognizes and blesses and considers his. (you might want to read the Palestinian covenant of Israel here. It is in Duet 30).

The context is clear. It is an error to use this verse in the way the Reformed shades it.

Paul is addressing both Jew and Gentile Christians who make up the Israel of God. He spends the first 11 chapters painstakingly making the argument that all believers are and have been justified by faith alone. He then takes chapters 12-16 to show that the Church is united with Christ and neither Jew nor Greek can claim to be better than the other.
Have you never really studied this letter? It is the magnus opus of Paul's writings.

But, maybe you don't really want there to be this unity of believers because then...your theory is ruined.

 

[SavedByGrace]

It says sinners, not every single sinner.
Jesus will save every sinner the Father
Gave to Him, no more, no less.

For the 1000 time. What you say is destroyed by John 3.16

 

[Reformed1689]

For the 1000 time. What you say is destroyed by John 3.16

No it isn't.

 

[Iconoclast]

For the 1000 time. What you say is destroyed by John 3.16

This is completely irrational.

 

[SavedByGrace]

This is completely irrational.

It is very simple. The WORLD in John 3:16 cannot be limited to the elect only. Because this verse says that WHOEVER out of this WORLD believes in Jesus, will be saved. If WORLD is the elect, then it is clear that some of the elect will be lost, because verse 18 says that there are those who will not believe! Even the Reformed theologian, Robert Dabney understood this

“In Jno.iii.16, make ‘the world’ which Christ loved, to mean ‘the elect world’, and we reach the absurdity, that some of the elect may not believe, and perish…since Christ made expiation for every man” (Systematic Theology, p.525)

 

[Iconoclast]

It is very simple. The WORLD in John 3:16 cannot be limited to the elect only. Because this verse says that WHOEVER out of this WORLD believes in Jesus, will be saved. If WORLD is the elect, then it is clear that some of the elect will be lost, because verse 18 says that there are those who will not believe! Even the Reformed theologian, Robert Dabney understood this

“In Jno.iii.16, make ‘the world’ which Christ loved, to mean ‘the elect world’, and we reach the absurdity, that some of the elect may not believe, and perish…since Christ made expiation for every man” (Systematic Theology, p.525)

No...the world is where they are found.
The Whoever/every believing one are the elect.

 

[Silverhair]

I do not have a problem with this text because of verses 1 and 2. It's not talking about individuals.

1Ti 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,

Did you miss that part or do you just ignore what you do not like?

 

[Reformed1689]

It is very simple. The WORLD in John 3:16 cannot be limited to the elect only. Because this verse says that WHOEVER out of this WORLD believes in Jesus, will be saved. If WORLD is the elect, then it is clear that some of the elect will be lost, because verse 18 says that there are those who will not believe! Even the Reformed theologian, Robert Dabney understood this

“In Jno.iii.16, make ‘the world’ which Christ loved, to mean ‘the elect world’, and we reach the absurdity, that some of the elect may not believe, and perish…since Christ made expiation for every man” (Systematic Theology, p.525)

LOL and that does not necessitate died and paid for every individual, just those who would believe.

 

[Reformed1689]

1Ti 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men,

Did you miss that part or do you just ignore what you do not like?

AND 2. You seriously have a problem with contextual reading don't you?

 

[Silverhair]

I actually exegeted John 12:32 and showed you that it is not talking about individuals because of context, something you don't seem to care about. You ignored it and, in fact, you are the one saying NA NA NA.

Does John 12:32 Go Against The Doctrines of Grace? – Reformed Truths

Reformed Truths, now that seems like an oxymoron to me. When you deny the clear truths of the bible it becomes real hard to believe what you say.

 

[Reformed1689]

Reformed Truths, now that seems like an oxymoron to me. When you deny the clear truths of the bible it becomes real hard to believe what you say.

I'm not the one denying truth. But thanks for the ad hominem since you couldn't deal with the post.

 

[Silverhair]

I actually exegeted John 12:32 and showed you that it is not talking about individuals because of context, something you don't seem to care about. You ignored it and, in fact, you are the one saying NA NA NA.

Does John 12:32 Go Against The Doctrines of Grace? – Reformed Truths

Your words here David, "However, John 12:32 shows that Jesus is proclaiming that salvation is to both Jew and Gentile. So “all people” in verse 32 means all people groups Jew and Gentile."

So what are people groups made up of? My guess would be individuals. So when Christ said he would draw all to Himself would you not conclude that means people/individuals. He has not drawn all Jews or all Greeks has He. You are forcing your theology onto the text.

Just trust what the Holy Spirit wanted to be said and you will not have so many problems with the bible.

This is why I am glad I did not grow up with any of the "ism's". I just learned to trust the text of the bible.

 

[Silverhair]

World means world. In what context does it mean individuals? That burden of proof is on you. You are the one making the claim.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

For God so loved the world, here we see that God loves His creation.
whoever believes in Him should not perish, that must be people, right.
God did not send His Son into the world, here we have Christ being born as a human being.
to condemn the world, What has sinned so as to be condemned?
but that the world through Him might be saved. So what is getting saved?
"He who believes in Him is not condemned. That would be people, right?

So when Christ Jesus says that He will draw all to Himself it is people not people groups He means. Christ saves individuals not people groups.