Featured Baptism

Why are you so obsessed with Calvinism? Why is that in this thread?

 

He seems to be denying imputed sins of ours to Jesus, so is He then also denying our imputed righteousness in him?

 

His takes does seem to be denying traditional Pauline Justification!

 

Did he purchase us back thru his shed blood then?

 

You have still provided NO basis to us as to how and why the father can forgive us and fully justify us and still remain true to His own Nature of being Holy though!

 

How can God punish an innocent man for a guilty and not violate his own Law, thereby rendering God both unjust and unholy?
That sword cuts both ways, so swing it with care.

Jon's argument is that Christ's suffering was not OUR PUNISHMENT. God punishes those that God does not forgive. It holds together from internal logic, but (imho) scrapes its knuckles against the definition of "propitiation".

The questions just cut too close to God's motives for me to be comfortable making definitive statements about WHY God does what God does, so I step back and leave it to 'fools' and 'savants' to swim in those waters.

 

Jesus was imputed our sins, so when he was the sin bearer, he was as if sin incarnated to the father, even though he stayed still Holy and Undefiled!

 

I understand the argument, and it, too, is internally logical. The question is can you actually prove from scripture that is exactly why God did what He did?

The issue is not that God was “stained” with our sin and became impure. The issue is that God’s RIGHTEOUS WORD STATES :

[Ezekiel 18:1-32 NIV]

1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 “What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:

“ ‘The parents eat sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.

5 “Suppose there is a righteous man
who does what is just and right.
6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor’s wife
or have sexual relations with a woman during her period.
7 He does not oppress anyone,
but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.
8 He does not lend to them at interest
or take a profit from them.
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
and judges fairly between two parties.
9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign LORD.

10 “Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things[fn]11 (though the father has done none of them):

“He eats at the mountain shrines.
He defiles his neighbor’s wife.
12 He oppresses the poor and needy.
He commits robbery.
He does not return what he took in pledge.
He looks to the idols.
He does detestable things.
13 He lends at interest and takes a profit.

Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he is to be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.

14 “But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:

15 “He does not eat at the mountain shrines
or look to the idols of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor’s wife.
16 He does not oppress anyone
or require a pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
but gives his food to the hungry
and provides clothing for the naked.
17 He withholds his hand from mistreating the poor
and takes no interest or profit from them.
He keeps my laws and follows my decrees.

He will not die for his father’s sin; he will surely live. 18 But his father will die for his own sin, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.

19 “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!​

Does this describe a God that cannot forgive without His pound of flesh?
Does it describe a God that would punish an innocent man for the sin of a guilty man?

See the problem with the working hypothesis.
It will need more proof than just “making sense”.

 

"Y'all" ask questions, and then YOU attack those that give answers. This might be tolerable, and I might accept your reproof, if your charges were TRUE, however you make FALSE charges against me.

Jon asked a question: "show me where it says Jesus received our punishment". I went looking and if you read the ACTUAL WORDS THAT ARE IN THE BIBLE it does not quite say that, so I understand that much of Jon's argument. However, I never claimed any of the things you accuse me of saying:

• and then deny that Jesus paid our debt of sin? (I never denied that Jesus paid our debt of sin, I asked where it says GOD PUNISHED innocent Jesus for guilty us ... Did God "torture" the sin offering the way Jesus was tortured? ... You say "PUNISH" where scripture only says "died". I am looking for the verse that says punish to affirm what I have been TOLD but cannot READ for myself.)
• That that's what is meant by bearing our sins in His own body? (I never denied this, but bearing our sin only IMPLIES punishment for our sin because that is the "theological lens" that has been used to view the verses. I am seeking EXPLICIT verses to support IMPLICIT teaching.)
• Because it just doesn't make sense to you? (You need to reread what I wrote. Both arguments make perfect "sense", however I am not looking for ideas that make sense - even semi-Pelagianism makes sense, having an internal logic, but is not true - I am looking for TRUTH that has explicit scriptural support to affirm it. The verse that clearly speaks of OUR PUNISHMENT (GOD'S WRATH) on CHRIST. So it was NEVER about making sense to me: your charge is false.)
• Who are you? (Someone seeking TRUTH in actual Scripture rather than well thought out THEOLOGY arguments.)

Just for the record, I believe that "punishment" is correct ... it fits the definition of "propitiation" better than any other theory I have ... BUT what I believe is irrelevant. The test is "WHAT DOES SCRIPTURE SAY?"

It is we-all that have failed to provide the requested verse that says OUR PUNISHMENT (GOD'S WRATH) placed ON JESUS.
(So stop falsely accusing me and just post the SCRIPTURE that ends the argument!)

 

That passage refers to capital; punishment, for one being killed due to their sins, not in regards to salvation!

 

Van loves to beat up the straw man of his own creation!

 

They do not mean to do this, but they are robbing the Lord Jesus and His Cross of its true glory and due!

 

Where and how was the wrath of God propitiated for then of not b y Jesus Himself hanging upon that Cross and bearing our sins?
JonC seems to think God can just overlook those sins somehow!

 

That is what I am asking, only I am not accepting "OPINIONS" (I already have a closet full of theological opinions), I am asking for SCRIPTURE.

The answer that I was taught was that the punishment that was due us was poured out on Jesus. God poured His wrath against US and OUR SINS on JESUS at the Cross. I have even heard it taught from Baptist Pulpits that the punishment extended beyond the cross to the eternal hell that we deserve. Setting the details of Hell aside, where does it say in scripture that the WRATH of the Father fell on the Son? I want to prove what I have been TOLD from scripture that I can read for myself.

Is that such a terrible goal? To desire to know from the WORD OF GOD that the teaching of men is correct?

Scripture SAYS Jesus bore our sins, so that is not in question. "WRATH" is the word that is frequently assumed but seldom quoted and never quoted against Jesus. That is the point that leads Jon to his conclusions and me to my questions.

You claim that I am robbing the Cross of its glory. This is untrue. I desire the Cross to have its TRUE glory. I refuse to follow the error of the RCC and claim "truths" that are not there. Like the Bereans, I am searching the scriptures to see it the words spoken are true. Saying Christ bore our sin is in Scripture (1 Peter 2:24). Saying Jesus is the "propitiation" is in scripture (Rom 3:25, Heb 2:17, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10).

When we speak of the "Wrath of God", here is what scripture says:

• [John 3:36 NASB95] 36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
• [Rom 1:18 NASB95] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
• [Rom 5:9 NASB95] 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath [of God] through Him.
• [Rom 12:19 NASB95] 19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath [of God,] for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
• [Eph 5:6 NASB95] 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
• [Col 3:6 NASB95] 6 For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
• [Rev 14:10, 19 NASB95] 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. ... 19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered [the clusters from] the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God.
• [Rev 15:1, 7 NASB95] 1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, [which are] the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished. ... 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.
• [Rev 16:1 NASB95] 1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God."
• [Rev 19:15 NASB95] 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

Thus we have affirmation that we are "saved from the wrath of God" (Romans 5:9), but nothing here suggests that God's wrath fell on Jesus. Does it? Do you have another verse that speaks to God punishing Jesus? (That is the part of Penal Substitution that I am questioning: Jesus suffered [fact], God forgave [fact]. Jesus blood is the reason we are forgiven [fact]. God punished Jesus in our place [speculation unless you can provide the verse that I cannot locate].)