If Calvinism is true, then Christ died for God's sins

[Reformed1689]

"And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?" Do you have a comprehension problem or are you just so calvinized that you can not accept clear English. I have considered the rest of Romans. Have you?

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO PREACH THE GOSPEL OF PEACE, WHO BRING GLAD TIDINGS OF GOOD THINGS!"
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: "THEIR SOUND HAS GONE OUT TO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

I agree that just because they hear that does not mean that they will believe some will reject the message of salvation. That is why it is can free will. The person has to believe before God will save them.
Now you my say that God has to give the person faith so they can believe, but if that is the case then those that He does not give that faith to can not believe and thus can not be saved since belief is required before one is saved as per Rom 10:9 and Rom 10:13. I mean, logically why would anyone call on the name of the Lord if he did not believe that the Lord could rescue/save him?

Notice that it says "WHOEVER BELIEVES" and "WHOEVER CALLS" those are universal terms. Only your theology will place a restriction on them. You can deny what scripture tells us but you can not alter what scripture tells.

No, those who hear do so because they have ears to hear (seems like I have heard/read that somewhere...) and they are the ones chosen by God already. Predestined (hmm, I've heard/read that somewhere before too). So no, I do not have a comprehension problem, nor do I ignore Romans 10. I simply don't ignore the rest of Romans either.

 

[Silverhair]

Except that is not the meaning of foreknew. Again you make yourself just look ignorant.

30.100 προβλέπομαιb; προγινώσκωb: to choose or select in advance of some other event—‘to choose beforehand, to select in advance.’
προβλέπομαιb: τοῦ θεοῦ περὶ ἡμῶν κρεῖττόν τι προβλεψαμένου ‘because God had chosen ahead of time an even better plan for us’ He 11:40. It is also possible to understand προβλέπομαι in He 11:40 as meaning ‘to decide in advance’ (compare the meanings in 30.84) or ‘to provide for’ (35.35).
προγινώσκωb: οὓς προέγνω, καὶ προώρισεν συμμόρφους τῆς εἰκόνος τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ ‘those whom he had chosen beforehand, he had already decided should become like his Son’ Ro 8:29. In Ro 8:29 προγινώσκω may also be understood as meaning ‘to know beforehand’ (28.6).
Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 362.

② choose beforehand τινά someone Ro 8:29.
• τὸν λαὸν αὐτοῦ 11:2 (EWeber, D. Problem der Heilsgesch. nach Ro 9–11, 1911; THoppe, D. Idee d. Heilsgesch. b. Pls 1926; FMaier, Israel in d. Heilsgesch. nach Ro 9–11, 1929; EvDobschütz, Prädestination: StKr 106, ’35, 9–19; JMunck, Christus u. Israel: Ro 9–11, ’56; EDinkler, Prädestination bei Paulus, GDehn Festschr., ’57, 61–102; s. also on προορίζω).
• Pass. of Christ προεγνωσμένος πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου 1 Pt 1:20.
• —Know from time past (Jos., Bell. 6, 8) προγινώσκοντές με ἄνωθεν Ac 26:5.—DELG s.v. γιγνώσκω.
• M-M. TW.
William Arndt, Frederick W. Danker, et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 866.

Paul’s use of the vb. demonstrates the character of God’s activity among human beings. It assumes the aspect of a personal relationship that originates in God himself. In Rom 8:29 he states that those whom God “foreknew he also predestined [προώρισεν G4633; see ὁρίζω G3988] to be conformed to the image of his Son,” and in 11:2 he affirms that “God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.” This language recalls Amos 3:2, “You only have I known [LXX ἔγνων] of all the families of the earth” (NRSV); since God is certainly not ignorant of the Gentile nations, the point is that he has a special relationship with Israel, thus the NIV renders, “You only have I chosen.” The contexts of Rom 8:29 (where προγινώσκω is juxtaposed with προορίζω) and 11:2 (cf. ἐκλογή G1724 in 11:5, 7) confirm that προγινώσκω gives expression to the principle of election (see ἐκλέγομαι G1721).
Peter states that Christ himself was “foreknown [προεγνωσμένου] before the foundation of the world” to redeem us through his blood (1 Pet 1:20; cf. v. 19), and the predestinarian motif is recognized by most versions (KJV, “foreordained”; NRSV, “destined”; NIV, “chosen”). A comparable thought had been expressed by Peter when he said on the day of Pentecost that Christ was handed over to the Jewish people “by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge [τῇ ὡρισμένῃ βουλῇ καὶ προγνώσει τοῦ θεοῦ]” (Acts 2:23).
Moisés Silva, ed., New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology and Exegesis (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2014), 139.

Did I question if God foreknew , NO what you have a problem with is the idea that God actually foreknew those that would freely choose to trust in Him. Free will is not the big boogeyman that you calvinists seem to think it is.

The word can and actually does mean different things depending upon the context. "To perceive or recognize beforehand, know previously, take into account or specially consider beforehand, to grant prior acknowledgement or recognition to someone, to foreknow." WSD

Did God know that His son would go to the cross, YES. Did God know that some people would freely trust in His son for salvation, YES. It is only you calvinists that have a problem with this and it seems to be a major stumbling block for you. But it is your stumbling block not mine.

 

[Silverhair]

No, those who hear do so because they have ears to hear (seems like I have heard/read that somewhere...) and they are the ones chosen by God already. Predestined (hmm, I've heard/read that somewhere before too). So no, I do not have a comprehension problem, nor do I ignore Romans 10. I simply don't ignore the rest of Romans either.

You just read into the text what you want to find. You have such a low view of what God can do. Does He desire that all come to faith, YES. Did He provide the way for people to come to salvation, YES. Can anyone trust in His son and be saved, YES.

You can think what you want but I would rather think that the God that is love actually loves His creation, that He actually wants all to be saved, that His son actually died to redeem the world, that man is actually responsible to decide if he wants to trust in the son for salvation or reject Him and be condemned.

God is sovereign, why don't you calvinists let Him be.

 

[Iconoclast]

This passage does not affirm why, or how, or, “on what grounds” God foreknew that some of the human family would be saved.
Because of God’s omniscience He foreknows everyone that is going to place their faith in Jesus the Christ. The fact of God’s foreknowledge of who will choose to believe does not cause any person to believe. Everyone has the ability to believe in or reject faith in Jesus the Christ.

That is not biblical foreknowledge.

 

[Reformed1689]

Did I question if God foreknew , NO what you have a problem with is the idea that God actually foreknew those that would freely choose to trust in Him. Free will is not the big boogeyman that you calvinists seem to think it is.

The word can and actually does mean different things depending upon the context. "To perceive or recognize beforehand, know previously, take into account or specially consider beforehand, to grant prior acknowledgement or recognition to someone, to foreknow." WSD

Did God know that His son would go to the cross, YES. Did God know that some people would freely trust in His son for salvation, YES. It is only you calvinists that have a problem with this and it seems to be a major stumbling block for you. But it is your stumbling block not mine.

And again, your view is humanistic, not biblical. Man is responsible for his salvation in your view, not God.

 

[Reformed1689]

Can anyone trust in His son and be saved, YES.

Not according to Jesus, but I guess His theology was wrong...

 

[Reformed1689]

You can think what you want but I would rather think that the God that is love actually loves His creation, that He actually wants all to be saved, that His son actually died to redeem the world, that man is actually responsible to decide if he wants to trust in the son for salvation or reject Him and be condemned.

I don't care what you would rather. That is proof you don't care about what Scripture states. You hold to your humanism.

 

[Silverhair]

That is not biblical foreknowledge.

That is what you say but I really do not think must of what you say so I will just ignore it.

 

[Silverhair]

And again, your view is humanistic, not biblical. Man is responsible for his salvation in your view, not God.

And in your view God is responsible for the billions that are condemned to hell just because He can as they have no hope of salvation as God does not provide a way for them to be.

 

[Silverhair]

Not according to Jesus, but I guess His theology was wrong...

So your telling me that these verses are not in your bible, may be time you get a new one.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
For God So Loved the World
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Silverhair]

I don't care what you would rather. That is proof you don't care about what Scripture states. You hold to your humanism.

Take off the blinders and just trust the bible. Your calvinism is just misleading you. When you deny clear scripture then it is obvious to all Christians that you do not trust the bible but instead just trust your own version of the bible.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That is not biblical foreknowledge.

For WHOM He did foreknow...not what...

 

[Ronnie Vaughan]

Sounds like the Synod of Dort is once again in session

 

[Silverhair]

For WHOM He did foreknow...not what...

Are you saying that you can not read the rest of the verse?

 

[Silverhair]

Sounds like the Synod of Dort is once again in session

Didn't attend the first one, but I hear it was quite the party.

 

[Iconoclast]

That is what you say but I really do not think must of what you say so I will just ignore it.

You do not know and you do not care.got it.

 

[AustinC]

And in your view God is responsible for the billions that are condemned to hell just because He can as they have no hope of salvation as God does not provide a way for them to be.

In your view, God is irrelevant and could be an inanimate object for all it matters because it is 100% man who picks the god he wants as his object of worship.

In your view, your god is an idol of your own making whom you choose in hopes he gives you heaven. You are responsible for you and your god is ambivalent.

See how that kind of projection works, Silverhair. Since I assert it, how can I be wrong. And, if you show me wrong, I get to project it again and again and again, simply because I can, even if others show that I misspoke.

Silverhair, you keep asserting falsehood, over and over again, as though somehow it will magically be true. If you can do that, what could possibly make my statement about your belief inaccurate? Maybe if I just keep stating it over and over and over again, it will be true.
Shall we play your game?

 

[5 point Gillinist]

So your telling me that these verses are not in your bible, may be time you get a new one.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
For God So Loved the World
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So you're telling me that these verses teach free will?

 

[Reformed1689]

Are you saying that you can not read the rest of the verse?

He reads the WHOLE verse. WHOM is important don't ya know?

 

[Reformed1689]

So your telling me that these verses are not in your bible, may be time you get a new one.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
For God So Loved the World
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Oh their in my Bible, what I am telling you is you are probably one of the worst biblical interpreters I have ever seen. You want to cherry pick verses, sometimes even parts of verses, ignore context, and exclaim that you are the bastion of biblical truth.

Those verses have nothing to do with free will. They have nothing to do with the ability of man to come to Christ.