Featured Temporal Justification

And ...?

This is the second death.


Revelation 20:5-6 King James Version

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Now think about that, Campion: there's a thousand year period between the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs and the Second Death. That's one thousand years of existence for born-again believers who are saved. You cannot deny their salvation.

Doesn't that interfere just a little bit with your reasoning?


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And that has a context within the progressive sanctification of the believer, not the Positional Sanctification of the Believer (Hebrews 10:10).

Again I appreciate the participation. This is how things can be worked out. You and I may not come to an agreement, but it gives others the chance to see varying viewpoints and themselves better able to come to conclusions based on the Scripture we provide.

God bless.

 

Well, it got Abraham a declaration of righteousness. It didn't get him eternally redeemed (only the Sacrifice of Christ can do that), but it secured his eternal destiy.

As for us, are you saying you do not need to live a righteous life? That is what Temporal Justification is.

Not even close to it, lol.

So you reject the teaching of Scripture concerning the mysteries that are taught there?


God bless.

 

First, let's clarify terms. The Lord is speaking about Hades (the resting place of the dead in the Old Testament, divided between the just and the unjust (Luke 16)) in Matthew 25, rather than Gehenna (the Lake of Fire, what is usually accepted as Hell).

In Matthew 25, we read are told the goats go into the Lake of Fire prepared for Satan and his demons, and that they go into everlasting torment. That does not cancel out the fact that we receive a more thorough teaching concerning the timeline of events in regards to Eternal Judgment in Revelation. Just as Paul's teaching concerning the Rapture, and that there is more than one general resurrection as taught in the Old Testament cannot be canceled out by posting Daniel 12:1-2, even so the fact that men go to Hades at the end of the Tribulation at the Sheep and Goat Judgment isn't canceled out.

If you are in the habit of trying to prooftext a position that has to cancel out Scripture, there really isn't a lot that I can do about that.

Do you deny there are two resurrections described in Revelation 20?


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What is obvious is that Faith precedes love, Cathode:

1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.

Your attempt to justify (pun intended) works-based philosophy is not going to deny the Doctrinal Theology of the Word of God.

Sorry.

The faith we have to profess Christ as Lord is a result of the Ministry of the Comforter.

The faith the Old Testament Saints had was a result of God's revelation of truth to them as well.

God initiates and completes Eternal Salvation, that is jut basic to Sound Doctrine:

Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


Author: ἀρχηγός archēgós, ar-khay-gos'; from G746 and G71; a chief leader:—author, captain, prince.

Finisher: τελειωτής teleiōtḗs, tel-i-o-tace'; from G5048; a completer, i.e. consummater:—finisher.


We can rightly profess He is Lord, and we look to Him to complete our faith.

You simply aren't going to prooftext works-based salvation with out-of-context applications of Scripture you think supports this false teaching.

Those who teach such are L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) and we can hope that they aren't also lost, but—Scripture seems to indicate otherwise.


God bless.

 

Perhaps you would expand on your understanding of a second resurrection.

As far as denying the Rapture, this is by far the worst position one can embrace:


1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 King James Version

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Perhaps you could also expand on why you reject what is so plainly taught by Paul here.

While the word "rapture" isn't in the Greek, the concept is. And as far as "rapture" being in the Bible, we use the word because of the Latin Vulgate:

The word translated "caught up" in the KJV is ...

ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

Catholics, if anybody, should be familiar with the etymology: (Latin rapio; Curtius, § 331).

rapture (n.)
c. 1600, "act of carrying off" as prey or plunder, from rapt + -ure, or else from French rapture, from Medieval Latin raptura "seizure, rape, kidnapping," from Latin raptus "a carrying off, abduction, snatching away; rape" (see rapt). The earliest attested use in English is with women as objects and in 17c. it sometimes meant rape (v.), which word is a cognate of this one.

The sense of "spiritual ecstasy, state of mental transport or exaltation" is recorded by c. 1600 (raptures). The connecting notion is a sudden or violent taking and carrying away. The meaning "expression of exalted or passionate feeling" in words or music is from 1610s.

(LINK)

U.S. Catholic states in an article ...

In the Vulgate, the early Latin Bible, the word used for God’s plucking us up into the sky was rapiemur, from which we derive the word “rapture.”

A quick look online at etymology:

rapiemur (Latin)
Verb
rapiēmur

1. Inflection of rapiō (first-person plural futur passive indicative)

(LINK)

While the word "rapture" is not found in the LXX, we understand that the word we use today derives from the word used in the Bible to translate "caught away." In that sense, "rapture" is found in the Bible in the translation of Jerome.


God bless.

 

Thanks for the response, Campion. I wanted to respond to this first and invite you to join in om the Pre-Tribulational Rapture thread. Please read the OP and address the points raised in it.

As far as "Christians not believing Christ will return twice," I remind you that Jews did not understand He would come twice either.

I will address the rest of the post now, be back in a few.


God bless,

 

It is actually the separation of the spirit from the body, as our Lord taught here:


Luke 24

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.


37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.


38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?


39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


I'm pretty sure the Lord's understanding of the division of man's makeup would be the one to embrace.

God created man's body, breathed breath (spirit) into him, and man became a living soul. So did the whales and every living creature, for that matter. It's right there in the Creation account.

This is a side note to our discussion but thought I would throw that in. There is a thread in "Baptist Theology" if you're interested in discussing this further.

As far as being judged at the moment we die, this is probably true in regards to our temporal walk, but in regards to an eternal context our sins have already been judged in Christ, and we have received remission of sins on an eternal basis:


Hebrews 10:1-4 King James Version

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


The (Covenant of) Law could not make those who offered sacrifice (of animals, the provision prior to Christ) complete (that is the meaning of "perfect," completion, to bring to an end), but the Offering of Christ makes those sanctified (set apart unto God by His sacrifice) complete (perfect) forever.

Again, we have been made complete in regards to remission of sins forever. That is the statement of Scripture. It cannot be broken:


Hebrews 10:10-14 King James Version

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:


12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;


13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.


14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


This was the promise of God in the Promise of the New Covenant:


Hebrews 10:15-18 King James Version

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


There is no need for more offering for sin because we have been made complete in regards to remission of sins. Because God will not hold the memory of our sin against us.

We, being in relationship with God, do not rely on sacrifices that cannot take away sin, but our faith is on the Sacrifice for sins that can take away sins, and this—for ever.


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