What good is a temporal justification? What does that get you?
I don't believe in a secret knowledge given to certain people. That's Gnosticism.
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Temporal Justification
- Thread starter Darrell C
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What good is a temporal justification? What does that get you?
I don't believe in a secret knowledge given to certain people. That's Gnosticism.
And ...?
This is the second death.
Revelation 20:5-6 King James Version
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Now think about that, Campion: there's a thousand year period between the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs and the Second Death. That's one thousand years of existence for born-again believers who are saved. You cannot deny their salvation.
Doesn't that interfere just a little bit with your reasoning?
Continued...
And that has a context within the progressive sanctification of the believer, not the Positional Sanctification of the Believer (Hebrews 10:10).
Again I appreciate the participation. This is how things can be worked out. You and I may not come to an agreement, but it gives others the chance to see varying viewpoints and themselves better able to come to conclusions based on the Scripture we provide.
God bless.
Jesus Christ is the rightful judge of all men. You do not have the authority to supplant his authority and judge yourself. And which one of us, if we were appointed judge of ourselves, would render a guilty verdict??
Christians do not get to judge themselves. In Christianity, we have the virtue of hope. If you are already saved, then there would be no need for hope.
Romans 8:24 ---> "For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?"
(Another death knell into belief in salvation by faith alone.)
The "second death” describes those who go to hell.
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne. And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which was the book of life. And the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it: and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them. And they were judged, every one according to their works. And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the pool of fire. (Revelation 20:12-15)
And I heard a great voice from the throne, saying: Behold the tabernacle of God with men: and he will dwell with them. And they shall be his people: and God himself with them shall be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes: and death shall be no more. Nor mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more, for the former things are passed away. And he that sat on the throne, said: Behold, I make all things new. And he said to me: Write. For these words are most faithful and true. And he said to me: It is done. I am Alpha and Omega: the Beginning and the End. To him that thirsteth, I will give of the fountain of the water of life, freely. He that shall overcome shall possess these things. And I will be his God: and he shall be my son. But the fearful and unbelieving and the abominable and murderers and whoremongers and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. (Revelation 21:3-8)
Jesus describes the scene where He renders judgement for those whose punishment is hell. This again is in Matthew 25.
Well, it got Abraham a declaration of righteousness. It didn't get him eternally redeemed (only the Sacrifice of Christ can do that), but it secured his eternal destiy.
As for us, are you saying you do not need to live a righteous life? That is what Temporal Justification is.
Not even close to it, lol.
So you reject the teaching of Scripture concerning the mysteries that are taught there?
God bless.
First, let's clarify terms. The Lord is speaking about Hades (the resting place of the dead in the Old Testament, divided between the just and the unjust (Luke 16)) in Matthew 25, rather than Gehenna (the Lake of Fire, what is usually accepted as Hell).
In Matthew 25, we read are told the goats go into the Lake of Fire prepared for Satan and his demons, and that they go into everlasting torment. That does not cancel out the fact that we receive a more thorough teaching concerning the timeline of events in regards to Eternal Judgment in Revelation. Just as Paul's teaching concerning the Rapture, and that there is more than one general resurrection as taught in the Old Testament cannot be canceled out by posting Daniel 12:1-2, even so the fact that men go to Hades at the end of the Tribulation at the Sheep and Goat Judgment isn't canceled out.
If you are in the habit of trying to prooftext a position that has to cancel out Scripture, there really isn't a lot that I can do about that.
Do you deny there are two resurrections described in Revelation 20?
Continued...
You are not seeing the obvious, you don’t understand
Everyone will be judged by their Love or lack of it.
You can have faith enough to profess Jesus as Lord.
“Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will. enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who. does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”
You must do the will of the Father in Heaven, you must do the works of mercy and Love.
“ Blessed are the merciful, mercy will be shown them “
You need both Faith and Love, not just Faith alone.
Those in Matt 25 are judged how all will be judged.
Bingo. Faith alone is nothing but a noisy gong or clanging cymbal. St. Paul could not be more explicit...
"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love." - 1 Cor 13:1-13
I do believe in a second resurrection, but I'm sure not in the same way as you.
I do not believe in a rapture, which is a modern fable.
37818
Well-Known Member
How do you believe two resurrections differently than in Revelation 20:4-15?
The rapture is ". . . shall be caught up . . . ." in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The word "rapture" is based on a transliteration from the Latin in that verse.
What is obvious is that Faith precedes love, Cathode:
1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.
Your attempt to justify (pun intended) works-based philosophy is not going to deny the Doctrinal Theology of the Word of God.
Sorry.
The faith we have to profess Christ as Lord is a result of the Ministry of the Comforter.
The faith the Old Testament Saints had was a result of God's revelation of truth to them as well.
God initiates and completes Eternal Salvation, that is jut basic to Sound Doctrine:
Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Author: ἀρχηγός archēgós, ar-khay-gos'; from G746 and G71; a chief leader:—author, captain, prince.
Finisher: τελειωτής teleiōtḗs, tel-i-o-tace'; from G5048; a completer, i.e. consummater:—finisher.
We can rightly profess He is Lord, and we look to Him to complete our faith.
You simply aren't going to prooftext works-based salvation with out-of-context applications of Scripture you think supports this false teaching.
Those who teach such are L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) and we can hope that they aren't also lost, but—Scripture seems to indicate otherwise.
God bless.
Perhaps you would expand on your understanding of a second resurrection.
As far as denying the Rapture, this is by far the worst position one can embrace:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 King James Version
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Perhaps you could also expand on why you reject what is so plainly taught by Paul here.
While the word "rapture" isn't in the Greek, the concept is. And as far as "rapture" being in the Bible, we use the word because of the Latin Vulgate:
The word translated "caught up" in the KJV is ...
ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
Catholics, if anybody, should be familiar with the etymology: (Latin rapio; Curtius, § 331).
rapture (n.)
c. 1600, "act of carrying off" as prey or plunder, from rapt + -ure, or else from French rapture, from Medieval Latin raptura "seizure, rape, kidnapping," from Latin raptus "a carrying off, abduction, snatching away; rape" (see rapt). The earliest attested use in English is with women as objects and in 17c. it sometimes meant rape (v.), which word is a cognate of this one.
The sense of "spiritual ecstasy, state of mental transport or exaltation" is recorded by c. 1600 (raptures). The connecting notion is a sudden or violent taking and carrying away. The meaning "expression of exalted or passionate feeling" in words or music is from 1610s.
(LINK)
U.S. Catholic states in an article ...
In the Vulgate, the early Latin Bible, the word used for God’s plucking us up into the sky was rapiemur, from which we derive the word “rapture.”
A quick look online at etymology:
rapiemur (Latin)
Verb
rapiēmur
- Inflection of rapiō (first-person plural futur passive indicative)
While the word "rapture" is not found in the LXX, we understand that the word we use today derives from the word used in the Bible to translate "caught away." In that sense, "rapture" is found in the Bible in the translation of Jerome.
God bless.
One is particular, one is general.
Yes, but a "rapture" whereby Jesus returns twice, once in secret to snatch away people to avoid suffering, is a fable originated by Darby in the 19th century.
The first death is that normal separation of body and soul at the end of this earthly life. When the soul leaves the body it is judged at once. "It is appointed unto men once to die, and after that the judgment" says St. Paul. If a soul is in God's grace and friendship, he goes to heaven and enjoys the beatific vision with God for eternity. Their death has been followed by the attaining of eternal life, and this is called the first resurrection. This is why St. John, in Revelation 6:9, says that he saw in heaven the souls of those who were slain for the Word of God. These blessed reign with Christ until the second resurrection, which will include the bodily resurrection of all mankind. The second death is the sentence to be passed upon the damned at the general judgment, which follows the general resurrection. For the blessed, the second death will have no effect.
The idea of Jesus coming twice, once in secret to remove Christians from suffering, was a fable invented by Darby in the 19th century and popularized by moderns such as Lindsey. It is the equivalent of Christian science fiction.
Christians do not believe Jesus will return twice. Furthermore, when He comes, it will not be in secret. Rather, He will be seen coming with great power and glory. With a thump, not a whimper. (cf. Mark 13:26-27; Matthew 24:31)
We received the grace to believe by Faith at one instance, but we must also receive the ongoing daily grace to Love, both are by Grace and both are necessary.
If you do not Love you do not have salvation. What you neglect to do for others, you neglect to do for Christ. We love God by loving neighbour, this is a commandment we must physically do by acts of mercy and love.
Many will be the sanctimonious, fully assured of self righteousness who walked by Jesus in need.
I don’t care if you have Faith to move galaxies, you walk by Jesus in need, you amount to nothing.
“‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life”
On what basis did they hope for salvation, Faith alone?
Even great champions of Faith welding God’s power will be rejected
“On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’”
“But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’”
“This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
Love is the Law, Love of God and Love of neighbour, and Love of God through neighbour.
People may have faith enough to move mountains, prophesy, cast out demons and perform many miracles, but if they do not demonstrate Love, they break all the commandments entire.
Faith is evidenced by rock solid belief, but Love is evidenced by good works of mercy and charity.
“On judgement day MANY “ will appear before Christ with only their faith alone to recommend them.
They ignored the on going daily graces to Love and help others God sends us each day.
The hour of another’s need, is the hour of the Lord’s visitation, recognise this and Love.
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37818
Well-Known Member
Jesus only returns once in His second appearing.
How do you see these different from Revelation 20:4-6 and Revelation 20:11-15?
Agreed. But there is a modern day dispensationalist movement which started in the 19th century which posits Jesus returns twice. Once in the rapture then again to set up his earthly kingdom. This theory was started by a Scottish visionary named Darby, and gained popularity in contemporary Evangelicalism with the help of Lindsey. It has no basis in Scripture or tradition.
Explained here.
Thanks for the response, Campion. I wanted to respond to this first and invite you to join in om the Pre-Tribulational Rapture thread. Please read the OP and address the points raised in it.
As far as "Christians not believing Christ will return twice," I remind you that Jews did not understand He would come twice either.
I will address the rest of the post now, be back in a few.
God bless,
It is actually the separation of the spirit from the body, as our Lord taught here:
Luke 24
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
I'm pretty sure the Lord's understanding of the division of man's makeup would be the one to embrace.
God created man's body, breathed breath (spirit) into him, and man became a living soul. So did the whales and every living creature, for that matter. It's right there in the Creation account.
This is a side note to our discussion but thought I would throw that in. There is a thread in "Baptist Theology" if you're interested in discussing this further.
As far as being judged at the moment we die, this is probably true in regards to our temporal walk, but in regards to an eternal context our sins have already been judged in Christ, and we have received remission of sins on an eternal basis:
Hebrews 10:1-4 King James Version
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
The (Covenant of) Law could not make those who offered sacrifice (of animals, the provision prior to Christ) complete (that is the meaning of "perfect," completion, to bring to an end), but the Offering of Christ makes those sanctified (set apart unto God by His sacrifice) complete (perfect) forever.
Again, we have been made complete in regards to remission of sins forever. That is the statement of Scripture. It cannot be broken:
Hebrews 10:10-14 King James Version
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
This was the promise of God in the Promise of the New Covenant:
Hebrews 10:15-18 King James Version
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
There is no need for more offering for sin because we have been made complete in regards to remission of sins. Because God will not hold the memory of our sin against us.
We, being in relationship with God, do not rely on sacrifices that cannot take away sin, but our faith is on the Sacrifice for sins that can take away sins, and this—for ever.
Continued...
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