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The Day TULIP Died

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AustinC

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JonC said:
No. Otherwise John 3:16-19 would not continue by discussing those who are condemned (unless you are claiming the condemned are limited by being born again as well).
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1 Peter 2::7-8
So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
37818 said:
Matthew 20:28.
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Yep, that's another that people read via their presuppositions rather than allowing Scripture to stand on its own.

Scripture says (Matthew 20:28): " just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”


How is that read - "and to give His life a ransom for many” or "and to give His life in place of many”?
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
AustinC said:
1 Peter 2::7-8
So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
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The part in red looks like an addition to Scripture. What translation are you using?
 
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AustinC

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
You think you do, but you do not.

This is evident in your eisejesus of John. Calvin rightly interpreted John 3:16 to refer to the world. He rightly interpreted Christ being the propitiation for the sins of the whole world to mean all men.

Allowing those passages to be interpreted by Scripture does not require you to alter God's Word (even if you take Scripture for what it says, Calvinism is not contradicted by those two passages).

What you are doing is trying to make those passages mean Calvinism. So you change the meaning of words.

But the "world" as used by John is not the "elect in the world".
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World, universal, is fine. Whoever believes is limiting to those who are born again and thus believe. We find this truth in the context of the chapter.

Jon, be honest and admit that your reading of books, outside of scripture, have influenced your thinking so you interpret scripture from the bias of others, not the exegesis of the passage.
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
AustinC said:
World, universal, is fine. Whoever believes is limiting to those who are born again and thus believe. We find this truth in the context of the chapter.

Jon, be honest and admit that your reading of books, outside of scripture, have influenced your thinking so you interpret scripture from the bias of others, not the exegesis of the passage.
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he is guilty of doing what he sees Calvinists as doing, reading our bias and :philosophy" into the scriptures!
 
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AustinC

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
The part in red looks like an addition to Scripture. What translation are you using?
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Well... that's a copout. I use ESV.
Peter expresses the Sovereignty of God in choosing and keeping in chapter 1. In chapter 2 he harkens to Jesus comments in Luke 20 and provides these verses that reflect the Sovereignty of God in those who don't believe.
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
So after that long comment do you agree that God desires all men to be saved or do you think that only a pre-selected group will be saved?
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The Reformers did not see that as an either/or choice.

  • God desires all men to be saved. (1 Timothy 2)
  • Men love darkness and do not come to the light. (John 3)
  • The Father draws to the Son those that will be saved. (John 6)
  • God foreknew those whom He would predestine, call justify and glorify. (Romans 8)
Both are true:
God desires all men to be saved AND only a pre-selected group will be saved. (Luke 13:34 and Romans 9:21-24)
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
AustinC said:
World, universal, is fine. Whoever believes is limiting to those who are born again and thus believe. We find this truth in the context of the chapter.

Jon, be honest and admit that your reading of books, outside of scripture, have influenced your thinking so you interpret scripture from the bias of others, not the exegesis of the passage.
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I do not understand why you believe this.

Why don't you admit that your theology is a result of studying Reformed theology over Scripture?

I am always open to revisit my positions. BUT only via Scripture (what is written in God's Word). I do not put much stock in your books insofar as what you (or Sproul, Knox, Owen, etc ) believes is taught by Scripture.

If you would-could read the Bible without adding to it I think that you may find it makes sense on its own, apart from the additions you make.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
AustinC said:
World, universal, is fine. Whoever believes is limiting to those who are born again and thus believe. We find this truth in the context of the chapter.

Jon, be honest and admit that your reading of books, outside of scripture, have influenced your thinking so you interpret scripture from the bias of others, not the exegesis of the passage.
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Austin your philosophy comes through when you say "Whoever believes is limiting to those who are born again and thus believe." You want people saved before they even believe, but that is not what the bible says is it.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
AustinC said:
Well... that's a copout. I use ESV.
Peter expresses the Sovereignty of God in choosing and keeping in chapter 1. In chapter 2 he harkens to Jesus comments in Luke 20 and provides these verses that reflect the Sovereignty of God in those who don't believe.
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Provide Scripture and we can discuss that. I do not care what your books say the Bible teaches. I care about what God has said (about "what is written").

Stop relying on extra-biblical authors and let's discuss Scripture itself.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
They would only be false if they were not true. Your theology wants to restrict what God can do, therefore it is not a false claim.
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How do you get "your theology wants to restrict what God can do"? That's nonsense. We claim that God has PUT HIS OWN RESTRICTIONS. Not on what he CAN do but what he DOES AND WILL do.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Austin your philosophy comes through when you say "Whoever believes is limiting to those who are born again and thus believe." You want people saved before they even believe, but that is not what the bible says is it.
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And again you seem to equate born again with conversion. Regeneration and Conversion are not the same thing.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
Provide Scripture and we can discuss that. I do not care what your books say the Bible teaches. I care about what God has said (about "what is written").

Stop relying on extra-biblical authors and let's discuss Scripture itself.
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In the same token, we don't really care what you say, which is what this thread is really about.
 
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